Clog-report

[dweiler]

Well, I am totally lost now.

First I said: only ban the level5+6 strategy and not clogging, because it is not a problem.

Then you (the moderators) say:

The bold part (don't clog on purpose) is meant for the whole game though as abusing this movement-bug of creeps/sends should not have a part in a skill-based league.

Then I report a game in which there is obvious clogging on level 7 and 8 (80+ units, slower movement speed, units circling in middle, and it is game deciding) and you don't wanna take actions against it?

And of course it is intentional clogging, because not even 1 player tried to hold or somewhat clear their lane. Just because it is common to push before level 7 that doesn't mean you do not exploit the clog-mechanism as much as you do on level 17 (their average value equals an average value of 2990 value on lvl 17).

Anyway, I don't understand why on one hand you say: you can't clog on purpose, but when I show you a game where they clog on purpose on level 7 and 8, you say: can't help it, it's part of the game. The rule doesn't make sense. (and to be clear, I agree with not banning clog, just on the lvl 5+6 strategy)

[MichaelSong]

I'm not the one who made this rule so cannot just remove it before we go through discussion.
But, I do agree that this new building rule have banned the lvl 5+6 clog strategy and seemed like so far making better than past.

I looked again the replay and they did build after lvl 7 to defend 8, pink's value was pretty big but still leaking due to panda+wolverines which are weak against 8, more weak at lvl 8.

There should be always some problem in the game and this LTD hasn't reguarly updated like other games such as LOL or something like that to solve the problems which could be resulted from in-game.

Only by making rules, changing rules by Mod won't make this LTD league to satisfy all the players, all the games and since there would be always problems made by accident or intended.
And I want to say there is a lot of players thanked about new building rule and still satisfied about it.

So, your opinion is that if the new building rule cannot solve all the problems of clog, this should be removed right?



Edit: I read again your reply and seems like you have edited, I also feel clog is part of this game. Cannot deny it. But, exception could be lvl 17. Since lvl 17 clog mostly gaurantee your win above 70~80%

[dweiler]

Well, the point for me is that the rule is wrong at the moment . The rule says you cannot clog on purpose, but obviously this is unavoidable and often no problem. I would say the clogging itself is not a problem, but only clogging in certain situations. And it's those situations you would want to ban, and not the clogging altogether (like throwing out the baby with the bathwater).
Things you ban by saying you can't clog on purpose which you do not want to ban are for example :

1. Income strategies on level 7/8/9
2. Mass sends (commonly used level 27 and 32)
3. Desperate attempts to win after a failed level 14/15 send

The things you want to solve are those:

1. The level 5+6 clog strategy.
2. Suicide strategies in which a single (or more) player(s) gets a very low value and very high income with no intention of holding at any point in the near future.
3. Strategies which aim to get a win by leaking so many units that they arrive at the king slower than the opponent.

So my point has been since the start of the discussion: why make a "big rule" which doesn't do what it is supposed to do, instead of a few effective rules in which you ban the strategies you want to ban?

[Hutzu]

We were trying to come up with a phrasing to do (almost) exactly that. If some people wanna send mass on 27/32, that's fine.

I was thinking about maybe adjusting it to "Do not purposely clog more than normal yolo" (normal = recoverable yolo; recoverable = prior to 17 please). If one teammember wants to suicide, ok well, fine. Sometimes it is your only option. Also mutants usually don't recover that fast. Also recoverable = not relying on income-boost caused by clog. Otherwise everything is recoverable.

Just saying the lvl 4-6 clog-strat is forbidden, and adding something for lvl 14-20 seemed a bit odd. If you can find a phrasing to cover exactly that, we'll be happy to copy-paste it. Also, we needed to rush it a bit, as the 4-6 clog had its comeback at the beginning of the season, when we thought people finally stopped that silly shit. So bare with us please.

------------

In your game, all (except yellow) had normal/acceptable value. But I understand your point. Let's forget about this replay, as it didn't violate our intention, but find a better way to either get a better phrasing or better understanding of our intentions.

[SLSGuennter]

tbh, if he got archers, and there is a new rule about clog, then he (imo) MUST go to hold atleast lvl 8.
i understand that holding 7 witch archers will downgrade the yolo a lot, but holding 8 and beeing strong in mid shouldnt be the problem

[dweiler]

Let's forget about this replay, as it didn't violate our intention, but find a better way to either get a better phrasing or better understanding of our intentions.

Yes, the reason I reported this was to get clarity on the rule, not to get people banned - and of course I agree that they should not be banned.

A version of the rule that I can live with could be something like this:

It is not allowed to use any strategies that involve leaking so many units to the king that they clog in order to gain time for (A) more lumber, or (B) outliving your enemy by leaking slower to king.

In this definition, the leaks on level 7 and 8 are completely left out: so for example, leaking 80 on level 7 which allows you to snipe out the bo's and several units is allowed (after all, this already happens at a 'normal yolo'), but leaking lvl 5+6, or clogging on 17 is not allowed. Also, the focus isn't so much on the amount of upgrades and value of the players which is sometimes subjective and sketchy.

Is this better?

[Krumme]

A sidenote to this madness yolo shit people are doing - archers leaking lvl 8 without hard send is what I would consider clogging on purpose - people even want to push rather than hold lvl 8 without send and team leaks to king - I mean wtf is wrong with the way we think? the entire purpose of this game is to not leak to your king.

hpmmcb tryout MONTH to make people understand what this game COULD be all about

[archol]

hpmmcb tryout MONTH to make people understand what this game COULD be all about

Would be great but not effective - i remember where me and hbc try to play all the time with this mode, but no other one wanted, because nearly 90% of lihl hate this mode. You cant yolo that great in this mode except ...

... you got archers, aquas etc, maybe we should just ban at least archer and aqua in this mode because they are simply overpowered at start. The reason is that a lot of lihl players cant play great with bad rolls in this mode, thus they hate it

[Krayyzie]

90%? over 50% of community votes for it as trial week every time it comes up to suggestion..., takes about 1 day of gaming before every skillless players starts whining about the mode because they dont understand how to use units, and full yolo doesnt work... and those players are screaming for a full week how bad the mode is, and finally they get rid of it, and can go full insane income without anything else again...

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=5229826

I reported this as intentional clogging yesterday, but was also considered acceptable... i cant see the lumbers on this replay, but my guess is they are 3 players with 7/3 for lvl 5 leaking over 120 units(after they even leaked lvl 4 to king without any sends. They start preparing for the clog already on lvl 3 by maxing regen and then hp and Not attack to make sure they get enough time for their yoloing...

Just remove the rule if its not gonna be followed anyways?

[SLSGuennter]

beep didnt play 1 game on this mode? so its not hated cause of gameskill imo

[archol]

I remember it clearly where HBC and i tried to play this mode so often, but the other lack the motivation - might be 50%, for me it was 90% of the players at that time. Hating it =/= they dont play it haha

Well 1 week is not that tragic, lets do it for 1 season and lihl will drop to the lowest player or/and games amount since creation rofl

[Hutzu]

@krayyzie that game was just really bad tower-luck by west.
Wolke: Engineers (Even build enough to hold lvl 4)
Yolo: Prisoners (bad luck, 375 value leaked on 4)
Berserk: Ogres/Ents
xfiend: Phantoms

The chatlog may have said not to up attack, but they ended up having att 4 right off the bat, when the first hawks hit their king on 5. None of them could have held 5 at all without staying 2/0 and they only hold their own lane. They were just out of luck vs 5.

Let's say xfiend had stayed 2/0 and gotten 1 hydra and 1 raiser (280+340+125+130 = 895 value) and yolo had gone 2 mavericks and 2 prisoners for 5 (4 x 125 + 2 x 170 = 940 value). Yolo would have still leaked and clogged with wolke and xfiend could have gone mid if lucky I guess. The clog could not have been prevented imo.

@mickeythemousie lemme brew over that when I have some peace in mind

[Krayyzie]

Prisoners And phantoms And ogres are possible holders for 5, intentional clog is leaking full on purpose, if the rule says u cant clog on purpose, One of those 3 could´ve gone for hold, atleast vs no send...or else change the rule to dont play lamestyle unless you feel u got bad units, then its okay...

[Hutzu]

I don't think prisoners can hold 5 vs sends.

Even if you do 2 prisoners and 2 mavericks.

And you really thinkg ogres can hold 5? How so?

[Krayyzie]

mm just held 5 vs furb with 2 mavericks and 1 prisoner... how bout phantoms? the thing is they´d leak 80-100 to king even vs no send on that lvl? and there is no units in game that could make that acceptable when ur goin with a no clog rule? espically not in this case when u do have some players that got units to hold...