Clog-report

[yolostyle]

We asked on that game if anyone can hold 5,
but we all felt uncomfortable so we agreed to push and king instead.

It is logical to do so imo and i don't see how we did wrong.

I accept yours and Krumme s opinion that you like holding,
but please don't force the rest of the league to go along with that.

I think it's not fair to degrade beep fiji whoever is a good player's skill by saying this yolo shit is for noobs anyone can do that.

That is NOT the case.

[supersexyy]

You know there is something wrong with player skill when 'no-one could hold 5 without staying 2-0'.

We should make a new rule. 50+ leaks to king you have to forfeit the game. Suitable rules to govern this (eg if both teams leak 50+) can be discussed later as to not clog this thread.

[Krumme]

We should make a new rule. 50+ leaks to king you have to forfeit the game.

But make it
50+ in 4s
40+ in 3s
and 30+ in 2s

and while we are at it - does the !ff function even work in LIHL? afaik it doesn't...

[pewpew lasergun]

We should make a new rule. 50+ leaks to king you have to forfeit the game.

very good idea. but i think will change the game.
straight save to 7 or to 10 there is ur 50+ leak.

we can exclude some lvls like 10.
and maybe add 50 leaks without at least 1 person going mid.

again the way to fix this pb is hpmmcb
there is no better way.

i enjoy playing 2s 3s miday europe time, like 2s with ilocos today, he is one great player.
brave and mickey also login early morning europe time, thats the bet time for me to play

i avoid afternoon 4s

[yolostyle]

Hello

imo mick summarized it quite nicely:
!BAN lamestyle (100 leaks 5+6 to send 99999wyv on 7)
!BAN clog on send lvl (purposely leaking more, due to mass creeps making leak reach king slower)

[Diablo_]

@mick's replay
Leaking more doesn't make the king lose less hp. If they leak 100 creeps they will (usually) lose more hp than if they leak 90 or 80 or 70 or 60 creeps. Clogging only delays the incoming damage, but 10 more leaks will always deal more damage even if they clog slighlty more.

What we want to achieve with the no clog rule simply is that people don't take advantage of clogging. Leaking 100 birds on lvl 5 and killing them ultra slow is taking advantage of clogging. Leaking 100 creeps at a race is taking advantage of clogging. But leaking 100 creeps on level 7 isn't taking advantage of it (unless for example it's a race and you win it because you clog much harder).
I think the rule would be pretty clear if we change it to "Do not take advantage of clogging (on purpose)", with above examples. Agree? Don't agree?

[Krumme]

I don't dissagree ^

[tastay]

There isn't a rule you can implement in 4s that will change the game into the way you want it to be played out.

If you make a rule that a certain leak amount will make a team automatically lose then people will just change their strategy to be optimal for that rule. Then you guys will complain about that and make another rule. Then people will change their strategy again. It will just continue forever until you give up.

The thing most people don't realise is that in 4s it is detrimental to hold since it is a game where sending the most units wins rather than holding the most. Especially with the current sends people get on 5 ,7 and 10. It is practically impossible to hold DD on 5 and a hard send on 7. Lets not even get into the 100 units send on 10 which only consist of wyverns and furbolgs.

In one game I told achilles to stay 1/0 until post 10 just to see if he could hold level 10 with 2500+ value but they didn't send so we couldn't see but even then I doubt he would of held a normal send.

The only way I could see this game changing in 4s if you implement a rule where people have to use their lumber every single level instead of saving.

[dweiler]

@mick's replay
Leaking more doesn't make the king lose less hp. If they leak 100 creeps they will (usually) lose more hp than if they leak 90 or 80 or 70 or 60 creeps. Clogging only delays the incoming damage, but 10 more leaks will always deal more damage even if they clog slighlty more.

Yes, I know, but in the examples you give they all clog, so in the original rule they would all be illegal. Fact is that without clogging (units not coming one by one, but all together) they would take way more damage. Unfortunately I don't have wc3 here, so I can't calculate for this particular game, but from memory the maths is something like this (I did it before I reported this to make sure it goes beyond the 2k hp)

Spoiler!

I think 18 units were killed by king because of clogging (taking no damage from them but sniping)
Level 17 does 18 DPS.
Because the king is killing it is on average 9 units, so 9*18 = 162 dps. This dps is lost for the amount of time that they could attack if there was no clog.
The amount of time needed to kill those 18 units was about 30 seconds. Let's assume normally it takes 5 seconds to get surrounded and you get 0 dps in that 5 seconds (of course you get more and you get surrounded more quickly (if one holder they surround within 1 or 2 seconds), but to be safe) and you can kill those 18 units about 3 seconds quicker because you can use a wave more on them, you will get 22 seconds more of 162 DPS:
22 * 162 = 3,564 HP. This easily exceeds the 2,060 HP they had at their lowest point, and so the clogging easily saved them a heal and so the game.
The same could be done for level 8, and you can probably conclude it saved another heal there as well.

I could be off a few with the numbers, but I am sure that in my original calculation I was somewhere between 3,500/4,000 HP, and so abusing the clogging did make them take less damage compared to not-clogging. Needless to say, you can't leak 80 units without clogging and so this is all hypothetical, but it should be very clear that in this case, clogging helped them to save a heal.

And so they still took advantage of clogging on purpose and the rule still doesn't work if you simplify it like that.

There isn't a rule you can implement in 4s that will change the game into the way you want it to be played out.

I agree with this. That is why my suggestion takes out the excesses (leaking for lumber, leaking to outlive your enemy), and leaves it open for the rest with no 'sketchy' rule that is always there like the sword of Damocles.

[MichaelSong]

After keep down track of this post,
I thought this is very constructive thread personally.
It will enhance discussion about clog problem and benefit more.
Will be watching further more

[dweiler]

Well after not having changed this rule for a while now and nothing has happened, we might agree that this rules works anyway?

[Hutzu]

Yeah, we can agree upon that. Archiving.