DotA AP Games [Update: EM is back]

[aRt)Y]

Update 2: Easy Mode games are back. https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 65#p243045

Update: A poll has been added. Please vote!

Enterprise Gaming has decided to remove easy mode (-em) from its DotA ap bots. Both us/ca and euro bots are now hosting the latest DotA version and non-em.

We strongly believe that normal DotA games create a better gaming environmental for both professionals and newbies. The gaming experience should improve for both parties as the risk of carries farming on supporters (owning them) is far less. In general, the game is simply more balanced and even though it might be more difficult at the beginning, players will quickly adapt to the skill difference. Keep in mind, easy mode barely helps new players and is neither an advantage for supportive roles.

The decision is the result of two discussions (1, 2) and will be tested throughout the next weeks. If we are satisfied by the result, the changes will be applied to other DotA games hosted by ENT.

As a long term strategic decision, we not only hope to equalize the gaming fairness but to also standardize the modes and reduce the amount of bots.

We do hope that other communities will join us on this journey to create a more fair and competitive gaming environmental in Warcraft 3.

Edit: As a few members have complained about ap taking longer than apem, the average game duration of ap is 40 minutes and apem is 37 minutes.

[ZaNeY]

Support 100% aRt)Y!

[Krkljator_CF]

Many people enjoy playing DotA -em games only because an average -em game lasts for about 20-30 minutes wheres a standard DotA game lasts for about 40-50 minutes. ENT was known for versatile maps and DotA modes. You are now taking it away and transforming into a "regular" DotA bot.

I am an admin on some other bot / community where skill level is quite higher than on ENT, and where map hacking is almost non-existent due to many range bans and safelisting (mostly for Greek ISPs). However, I still enjoyed playing some fast -em DotA games here, even though there were many annoyed noobs and map hackers.

If you really want to hear what others think about removing -em on ENT completely, you should make some bot announces and ask players to write their comments on forum, either in this topic or create a new dedicated topic for that matter. If they like -em, keep it. If not, remove it. Simple as that.

Even though you may think that maybe many DotA players voted to remove -em mode, you need to take into consideration that many players (mostly noobs) don't visit forum - not to mention reading the ENT DotA rules. Every now and then, many of them cry about banning whenever there is fountain farming or backdooring.

Anyway, good luck!


P.S. Your ENT38 bot still hosts -em games on us/ca ([ENT] DotA arem us/ca)

[nabo.]

@Krkljator_CF
Based on statistics, avg game time for -em is 37-38min while non-em is 41-42min.

So, your assumptions are somewhat off the mark. Theoretically, non-em games should be longer. But fact is...including other variables, average game time aint that far apart.

[Krkljator_CF]

I have been playing -em games for over a month here, so I know how much they lasted (at least when I am playing, not sure about you).

[uakf.b]

Code: Select all

mysql> SELECT AVG(duration) FROM gameplayers, games WHERE games.id = gameplayers.gameid AND gameplayers.name = 'krkljator.cf' AND games.datetime > '2015-03-01' AND gamename LIKE '[ENT] DotA apem%';
+---------------+
| AVG(duration) |
+---------------+
|     2118.2946 |
+---------------+
1 row in set (0.01 sec)

mysql> SELECT AVG(duration) FROM gameplayers, games WHERE games.id = gameplayers.gameid AND gameplayers.name = 'krkljator.cf' AND games.datetime > '2015-03-01' AND gamename LIKE '[ENT] DotA ap %';
+---------------+
| AVG(duration) |
+---------------+
|     3352.2500 |
+---------------+
1 row in set (0.01 sec)


Well, can't argue with that.

Edit: well, your apem average is still 30-40 minutes, not 20-30; but a lot shorter than your ap average; although you only have four ap games recorded

P.S. Your ENT38 bot still hosts -em games on us/ca ([ENT] DotA arem us/ca)

As the topic suggests, only ap* have been changed for now

[AnotherWorld]

Krkljator_CF, we played together yesterday.

What i can say, to add my impressions, apem were fine & mostly 25-30 min of fun. ap is really longer & close to 1 hour each time. Will be simply harder for me to go into games for that length :/

on last uakf.b post, we can see apem is 33% faster than ap one

I just wish we keep some apem, as a player opinion.

[uakf.b]

on last uakf.b post, we can see apem is 33% faster than ap one

That was average for Krkljator_CF. art)y and nabo. already said the global averages. Krkljator_CF's average was only based on four games; it's possible that ENT games are shorter in general due to different skill level.

[Krkljator_CF]

Hi, World!

Thanks for the detailed statistics, @uakf.b

Yes, I mainly played -em on ENT. I play regular DotA games elsewhere.

Since -arem is available on us/ca, why not making the same for euro - at least during these "tests".

I am only suggesting that since many players do enjoy -em over standard DotA games.

[Madeofmetal]

U cant disable a part of blizzards game to make it more even.
Then disable Legion commander, Geomancer, Bloodseeker as well.
Apem is as just to all the players as Ap
Even odds for all
We will have to enchance this decision greatlyl in order to be upgrate it to just stupid.
There was a choice for ap and apem

[AnotherWorld]

One more thing, i just played one AP.
Really longer :/ but the map is horrible ! °_°
How could they changed it that way... woaw... total mess, rosh path is so tiny that 2 heroes max in it... too tiny fountain too, can be gambled easier :/
Grrrrrr i don't like that map, apem has gone ...
*Crying*

[F-Train]

Get use to it
6.81d way outdated

[aRt)Y]

It's obviously more "fun" to own newbies (as carries) or intelligence heroes which have no defense whatsoever. But that's not really newbie friendly - however, being friendly to newbies and creating a good gaming experience is the core of ENT's services.

I will repeat myself again: I see no reason why easy mode should exist except for the very weak argument of the time investment which has been invalidated by the global average of ap and apem games on ENT.

@Krkljator_CF While this is off-topic, I highly doubt your "maphacking rate" is "non-existing". Either your community is rather small (with range bans not affecting many players) or the detection/ban range isn't sufficient enough. We've enough experience judging these things but that's beside the point. What you already stated correctly, your average skill level might be higher and that's what we are aiming for as well.

@Madeofmetal Your argument makes no sense. This isn't about "Blizzard" but about IceFrog being newbie friendly what he dropped years ago. Only because he added a simple -em mode, doesn't mean he intended to keep it alive. All about IceFrog cares/cared is the competitive scene as that's what DotA actually keeps alive. Take Dota 2 as an example for that matter. He is the lead designer of the game but do you see them adding an easy mode? I guess not. It works there and again, I dont see a reason why players can't adjust to ap as well. The arguments of choice and time are simply too "easy" and have no value.

Anyway, it's a test and we will see. :)

[jfaller1]

its actually sad how many people are complaing abt the new change. this game was not made for em it was based for non em. get a grip and learn to play a 15 year old game properly. i understand the em games being shorter but you should expect an hour per game no matter what mode is it. ive been part of ap games that lasted 15 min and ive been part of apem games that have been 70 minutes. seriously get a grip and learn to play dota the way its supposed to be played.

[Krkljator_CF]

Every DotA update changes the game and you have to adapt. Reading the change log is something that everyone should do. There hasn't been an update for a long time and we got used to v6.81d. And now, all of a sudden, we have v6.83c. There are many new changes that are yet to come, in case they get copied from DotA 2.

Anyway, -em is not tied to a map. No one said -em needs to be used strictly for an old v6.81d map. There is no need for IceFrog or anyone else to specially support -em mode - it just gives you more gold, more experience and the towers are weaker. Overall, it should make the game last shorter, and that's the reason why I started to like it - this is coming from a person who has been playing DotA for many, many, many years.

We could argue what heroes benefit more from -em mode, but if you have more gold the same as your enemy, I would say it is even.

Anyway, this is my opinion. You really need to check what other players think.