DotA mode vote

[PharoaheMonch]

How would you guys like it if you're playing in the park and though, you're good, a couple of NBA players come to the court and kick you out because you're not good enough. That's essentially what you're doing by removing EM games. You're taking out a huge base to fulfill the demands of the minority. ENT isn't built by pros. This site probably wouldn't be running if more and more players are quitting. So you aren't just removing DotA games, you're removing the platform that allows ENT to be ENT.

That's a bit extreme.

I saw the announcement more along the lines of : " Attention ENT gamers: The 9ft middle school rims has been raised to a regulation 10 feet and will be hosting full-court games . All are welcome"

[mystical_ice]

It's scary how fast Dotavoid games are filling up now. Crazy fast!

You remove APEM games, and guess what - AP games are still filling up just as slow - all the APEM players have moved to AREM or to another server (read: non-ent).

The reality is 99% of ENT players are EM players. I think that statistic may even be a little conservative. Seriously. DOZENS of EM games fill up in the time it takes for a single non-EM game to fill.

From a strictly business standpoint, this move makes no sense. I mean seriously - it's like Ford saying "we're going to get rid of the F-150 (which represents 95% of our market), and instead we're going to force people to drive the F-250, which is by all measures a more superior truck".

In the real world (keyword), companies don't force (99% of) their customers to switch to a product or service that they don't want, ESPECIALLY NOT WHEN 99% OF THEIR CUSTOMERS ARE SATISFIED. Look historically at companies that tried that. Remember Netflix? Their stock price plummeted, and they had to make a public apology. By many analysts perspectives, even several years later it hasn't recovered.

Funny how all these "non-em" fanboys exist, and the poll is certainly skewed in favor of "non-em", but yet AP games are taking just as long to fill up (minutes vs. seconds).

REALITY. Face it:
EM games fill up in peak times in 3-4 seconds, even after removing APEM
Non-EM games take JUST AS LONG to fill.

...And we all know it's not Burbenog Tower Defense that's keeping ENT afloat.

I'm sorry guys, but making this move, you're going to lose the largest part of your playerbase. No question. Even if 50% of players switch to AP or AR because EM isn't available (and I would think it's more like 10%, but let's just say 50% for now), you're still losing FIFTY PERCENT of your players (customers). That equates to thousands of users.

It boggles my mind that this is even an option, it really does. Again, from a business/common-sense standpoint, even discussing this makes no sense.

If AP players prefer to play AP games, NO ONE IS FORCING THEM TO PLAY EM! Simple as that.

[jfaller1]

EM sucks! its embarrassing to see people vote against ap. if noobs leave let them, no one wants feeders here

[alopp12345]

It is pretty obvious it was a failed move to get boring -ap rooms filled and will be reverted soon.

[tinkertonker]

AP games are filling fast now. Old players are coming back. I actually see people rated above 1.5 k elo on a regular basis.

[PharoaheMonch]

It's scary how fast Dotavoid games are filling up now. Crazy fast!

You remove APEM games, and guess what - AP games are still filling up just as slow - all the APEM players have moved to AREM or to another server (read: non-ent).

The reality is 99% of ENT players are EM players. I think that statistic may even be a little conservative. Seriously. DOZENS of EM games fill up in the time it takes for a single non-EM game to fill.

From a strictly business standpoint, this move makes no sense. I mean seriously - it's like Ford saying "we're going to get rid of the F-150 (which represents 95% of our market), and instead we're going to force people to drive the F-250, which is by all measures a more superior truck".

In the real world (keyword), companies don't force (99% of) their customers to switch to a product or service that they don't want, ESPECIALLY NOT WHEN 99% OF THEIR CUSTOMERS ARE SATISFIED. Look historically at companies that tried that. Remember Netflix? Their stock price plummeted, and they had to make a public apology. By many analysts perspectives, even several years later it hasn't recovered.

Funny how all these "non-em" fanboys exist, and the poll is certainly skewed in favor of "non-em", but yet AP games are taking just as long to fill up (minutes vs. seconds).

REALITY. Face it:
EM games fill up in peak times in 3-4 seconds, even after removing APEM
Non-EM games take JUST AS LONG to fill.

...And we all know it's not Burbenog Tower Defense that's keeping ENT afloat.

I'm sorry guys, but making this move, you're going to lose the largest part of your playerbase. No question. Even if 50% of players switch to AP or AR because EM isn't available (and I would think it's more like 10%, but let's just say 50% for now), you're still losing FIFTY PERCENT of your players (customers). That equates to thousands of users.

It boggles my mind that this is even an option, it really does. Again, from a business/common-sense standpoint, even discussing this makes no sense.

If AP players prefer to play AP games, NO ONE IS FORCING THEM TO PLAY EM! Simple as that.

Nice try but Void has only had 20 new Members in the Month of June and on par to meet the regular quota on new members joined per month. Void also only has 2 bots running compared to the multiple bots running on here for multiple games not restricted to dota.

Food for thought. Wendys beat out Burger King in the fast food rankings last year. Chik-Fil-A trounced KFC in total chicken sold with only a fraction of the stores. There are about 1,775 Chick-fil-A restaurants in the US and about 4,491 KFCs. People prefer quality over quantity.

As far as your dota statistics go those numbers are not even close to accurate. Also why do you care so much about the bottom left of the bell curve? It's not like they're getting banned. They're being offered the same great opportunity to play with what could possibly make ENTgaming the premier league that sets itself apart from the other leagues. You know what makes ENTgaming successful compared to the failure that was DotaCrash? The staff is solid, knowledgeable, and looks towards a path that pays attention to and follows the changelogs of Dota2. I don't think they're given enough credit and I assure you it's not the bottom left tier of the bell curve that keeps this server afloat. Apem is available on several other servers. It's not like it's the Armageddon of WC3, it's just the end of bumper bowling on ENTgaming.

[smackdaniels]

I love the new map and ap.. I used to play only em and now im all about non-em. thanks for making the switch i think the games have improved

[mystical_ice]

Nice try but Void has only had 20 new Members in the Month of June and on par to meet the regular quota on new members joined per month. Void also only has 2 bots running compared to the multiple bots running on here for multiple games not restricted to dota.

Food for thought. Wendys beat out Burger King in the fast food rankings last year. Chik-Fil-A trounced KFC in total chicken sold with only a fraction of the stores. There are about 1,775 Chick-fil-A restaurants in the US and about 4,491 KFCs. People prefer quality over quantity.

As far as your dota statistics go those numbers are not even close to accurate. Also why do you care so much about the bottom left of the bell curve? It's not like they're getting banned. They're being offered the same great opportunity to play with what could possibly make ENTgaming the premier league that sets itself apart from the other leagues. You know what makes ENTgaming successful compared to the failure that was DotaCrash? The staff is solid, knowledgeable, and looks towards a path that pays attention to and follows the changelogs of Dota2. I don't think they're given enough credit and I assure you it's not the bottom left tier of the bell curve that keeps this server afloat. Apem is available on several other servers. It's not like it's the Armageddon of WC3, it's just the end of bumper bowling on ENTgaming.

Void has 20 new what... forum members? Because I know for sure it doesn't have 20 new accounts playing on its servers... The point you're missing, is the people that don't care to come to this forum and post in this topic... we're talking about 99% of the DOTA players that see that ENT isn't offering APEM, and they go and play in Void APEM. They don't go create an account in the Void forums, they just join the void dota server.

Second, your analogy of the fast food chains is inaccurately applied to this situation. If you want to use fast food, i'll give you an example that's more fitting: Chick fila's most popular menu item is the chicken sandwich. What if chick fila said "from now on we're not going to offer the chicken sandwich - the chicken salad is a better alternative, healthy people eat chicken salads, and there's no disputing all around it's a better menu item, and NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE order it, so we're doing away with the chicken sandwich". The point is they wouldn't. That's laughable in any business or marketing meeting.
What's more, Chickfila and KFC, while both serving chicken, have two very different menus. With the exception of perhaps chicken nuggets, they appeal to different clientele, etc. I mean why not say "Lamborghini" and "Ford" can be compared, because, well, they both sell vehicles with 4 tires, right? Lol. no. You go to KFC to get a bucket of chicken. You go to chikfila to get a chicken sandwich.

And what I think you and many others are failing to grasp, is you don't force 99% of your members to do something that 1% of the members want. I would bet you money that of every 200 players on ENT dota, only 1 of them has an account on this forum. I know, because for years me and roommates played, and we could care less about coming to the forums to post. If ENT doesn't offer the game modes I wanted, I moved to a different server - problem solved.

Last thing. in response to "Void also only has 2 bots running compared to the multiple bots running on here for multiple games not restricted to dota.". Do you honestly think that it's burbenog TD on ENT that is keeping this site afloat? Lol. Don't kid yourself. Again - I don't know numbers, but I would put money on the fact that for every 1 player that regularly (keyword) plays a NON dota game on ENT, there are 500 that play exclusively dota.

[nabo.]

There are both goods and bads of em. Yes, it is geared towards more casual/laid-back/noob players. It can be fun in its own way, but it can be more fun if you actually learn how DOTA actually should be played. It could be said that it is more noob-friendly in that it requires little effort to play since you get free-money free-items, but it can also be said tat it is not noob-friendly since most noobs actually do not really improve.

We should be hosting -em on 6.78 or older versions if you want a more fair/balance map for -em honestly if you are concerned about game balance and dota1 uniqueness. If you want to argue that DOTA1 is unique in its own way and should not follow DOTA2, then you should be playing 2010-2011 dota versions instead of the 6.81 which is a version that came out along DOTA2 updates...

Yes, a proportion of apem players have moved to arem and another proportion of apem players are playing ap. Yes, AP games are better in quality in return for its longer wait time. No, its fill-rate isnt so bad as some people claim to be so. AP is filling quite nicely. No, we have not lost much of our playerbase. There are players who have moved to arem and also new players who are joining our ap games. There are certainly pros and cons in removing apem. Perhaps ap+arem is ok. Perhaps we should continue apem+arem+ap. Perhaps we should update to 6.84 map and go with non-em only.

Those who say that only people who care are voting and that the voting is bias = quite the funny statement. Since when did we ever have so many players interested in a topic and vote? Average voting numbers in the past have been 20-30 votes. Although I have seen stupid unconstructive arguments and flamings, I have also seen a considerable amount of interest. As far as community involvement and interest is concerned = good.

Anyway, as we get more further dota1 map updates, -em is out of the question. If you do not understand why, you can read some of the patch logs from dota2 or from Dracolich's changelogs which are based on dota2.

https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=60025
I am not sure if you guys been keeping up, but Dracolich has been actively updating an unofficial dota1 map. We previously autohosted his map before icefrog updated his 6.83. The 6.84 map is currently in BETA. You will find that he has fixed many bugs and mechanics along with the new updates. He previously worked on older dota1 maps you guys have played and is currently mapmaker of dota lod as far as i know.

We will make a final decision soon. As arty said, we will consider all your feedbacks and bot activity before and during the trial period. I guess this community is not ready for better gaming quality though.

[EdgeOfChaos]

There are both goods and bads of em. Yes, it is geared towards more casual/laid-back/noob players. It can be fun in its own way, but it can be more fun if you actually learn how DOTA actually should be played. It could be said that it is more noob-friendly in that it requires little effort to play since you get free-money free-items, but it can also be said tat it is not noob-friendly since most noobs actually do not really improve.

So what? If the casual mode is fun for people, then ENT has accomplished its goal - fun. You can't know that everyone enjoys AP more as long as they put in effort to learn it. We're all casual players on ENT; no one is playing this to prepare for the dreamhack dota tournament. So please don't try to force people into being leet pros at the game when they want to play EM; better to let everyone choose which mode entertains them the most.

[nabo.]

You seem to mistake better quality = pro games or some sort of tournament.

We will make a final decision soon. As arty said, we will consider all your feedbacks and bot activity before and during the trial period. I guess this community is not ready for better gaming quality though.

[EdgeOfChaos]

I would say that forcing people to play a mode they don't want to reduces the quality of those people's gaming experience. Or else if it improves it, they would have been playing that mode in the first place.

[nabo.]

Sure, you can think that way. I'll respect that.

As I said, we can stay with the more appropriate -em versions and let the people play it. If they want em, ok.

I will however say that the vision or approach I would think would benefit this community the most is not keeping em and moving forward. It is an old game and perhaps staying with the older maps is what this community wants the most and more suitable for this classic game. I have enjoyed both em and non-em games before. Both require different game styles. May be players just dont realize the difference between the older and newer maps and reasons why em is not suited for these maps. Quite sad, but we shall see.

Good to see at least you cared to say something when I thought you lost your fire for this community long ago.

[LiquidShards]

I have just over an hour before I have to leave the house. This is no longer enough time for a game of DotA, especially since it now takes about 15 minutes to fill a game. Arty has stated that the average AP game time is 40 minutes yet my games consistently last over an hour. In the past it was rare for me to have an EM game longer than an hour but I managed to play my longest game yet in my very first AP game since EM bots were disabled (1.5 hours). Now I would budget over an hour and a half, maybe even two hours, for a game of AP seeing as the games I played so far where not incredibly competitive.

There are things I like about AP, especially since I like playing support, but removing people's choice of what mode to play is just distasteful. Keep ENT strong and bring back EM. Why not have some sort of incentive system to encourage AP, which is obviously your goal. "Golden ELO" (Seperate AP stats)? Ranks or achievements and flair? Maybe even TSR (True Skill Rating)?

Please encourage the community rather than force it. I love ENT and I hope you understand how important your servers are in keeping Dota 1 alive.

...It is an old game and perhaps staying with the older maps is what this community wants the most and more suitable for this classic game. I have enjoyed both em and non-em games before. Both require different game styles...

I'm glad to hear this from you nabo and I couldn't agree more. Here I was beginning to feel you were being unmindful and biased.

[corey2013]

I agree ap mode is better, but it's only better when all the noobs get to play apem. Now we have tons of noobs who have zero clue how to handle an ap game who just ruin it for everyone else. Let them have their apem, and those who want to play ap on the new map still can. I dont think they are going to "learn" or "adapt" because if you havent already done so in a game this old, then chances are you aren't going to get any better.