LTD "clog" rule suggestion

[Akitos]

As many of the players who're frequently playing on the 1,2k bot have probably noticed, intentionally clogging at lvl 17 is becoming a trend again. Sadly the mods don't give a fuck about it, and appearently haven't updated the rule "because it becomes obsolete with broud3r's new map anyway". How is that a reason to not update a rule? It's not like updating a rule takes a huge effort or anything, besides, it's not yet decided wether or not broud3r's map will replace the old one entirely. So could we please get an update on this rule? Clogging is really dumb... There is a rule that states:

"Do not intentionally clog: Players must have close to half of the recommended value."

For whatever weird reason the phrase "intentionally clog" appearently isn't an actual rule and doesn't talk about intentional clog, since intentional clogging is allowed aslong as you're above 50% of the recommended value.

To fix this issue i present 3 options:

1) Add this rule: "Do not build corner delay: Players must use all their Gold on trying to hold a wave as good as possible."
2) Change the current "anti clog" rule to this: "Do not intentionally clog by any means." and add this rule: "Players must have close to half of the recommended value at all times." (Because it actually are two completly seperate things... You can have your whole team being on less than 50% value, and yet leaking less than a team where everyone is at 70%. So that shit doesn't have anything to do with clogging)
3) Change the current "anti clog" rule to this: "Players must have close to half of the recommended value at all times." There is no need for the "Do not intentionally clog" when players are actually allowed to clog... Ofc, this wouldn't solve any issues, but at least it'd make things clear and show that nobody really cares about people abusing clog to win games that they shouldn't.

"1)" is probably the best and easiest solution.

[SLSGuennter]

First of all: Yes, it is a lot of work to make new rules, cause there will be plenty of brq's incoming and they have to be reviewed.
IF the new map will be choosen to be the hosted, then this would be a lot of work and a lot of gameplay-changing by the players, just for nothing.

Well, i doubt there is a way to do this.

Due to rule 1):
If you have greymane and hydra in your roll, and youu think enemy send 17, then youu MUST build grey? Else you get banned? Seems quite senseless to me. + If people arent rly good players, and dont know how to build best for 17, they get banned for clog then? Cause they hold less then they could? Seems unfair aswell.
Also, delays are part of the current map (maybe not the 1k gold delays some people do atm, indeed).
Rule 2) and 3):
Well, there were reasons to do it like this, cause we dont want to force an archer to go more then 50% for example, if he holds his lane anyway.
If you leak with 70% (at least below lvl 10) the clog wont give you a lot of wood, since you used the gold to build, not push ... therefor it wouldnt even be good for you to clog with 70% val (in the early lvl's).


All in all, like i said at start: New map will hopefully be rdy soon, and there wont be clogproblems anymore.

[Akitos]

Due to rule 1):
If you have greymane and hydra in your roll, and youu think enemy send 17, then youu MUST build grey? Else you get banned? Seems quite senseless to me. + If people arent rly good players, and dont know how to build best for 17, they get banned for clog then? Cause they hold less then they could? Seems unfair aswell.
Also, delays are part of the current map (maybe not the 1k gold delays some people do atm, indeed).

Guess this needs another wording then. I meant that you have to use all Gold on your actual build, instead of using it on corner delay that won't help you holding. Maybe just this then: "Do not build delay." Does the same but is easier to understand.

All in all, like i said at start: New map will hopefully be rdy soon, and there wont be clogproblems anymore.

Assuming the old one gets replaced... Why do you assume that? Maybe some people enjoy the old map and don't want a new one to replace it entirely? WC3 is alot about nostalgia and old gameplay afterall.

[SLSGuennter]

Then you will kinda have the same problem again ... People massing Hydra for 17 instead of building Mutants, and other team trying to build usefull towers and dieing faster due to this. Wont change a lot imo.

I assume it, cause most people i had talked with, do like the idea of a new map (If its a fixed one, without a whole bunch of bugs. Obviously).
If you want to play LTD just for "the good old times", why you dont play v1.6? Its an actually better balanced, less glitchy and older map.
v1.6 got updated to 2.7 then to 3.41 and now it will be 4.0 (or 3.41remake or w/e it will be called). I didnt hear any legit argument about keeping 3.41 instead of getting the new map ... except the bugs ofcourse, but im quite sure they will be fixed.

EDIT:

Yeah many noobs abuse this recently on 1,2k... Since i saw this coming up i usualy ask people in start of the game if we do gentlemans agreement on not building cornerdelay. Really dumb ruling there and it's most likely not being changed because it's widely assumed that the old map will get permanently replaced anyway, even tho the community haven't decided about that matter yet... And the main reason for that being that the mods are too lazy to handle incoming ban requests, what a stupid argument really... You could just set a note that comes up at start of the game about this rulechange and it would be np.

Well. It seems like you dont get the problem ...
With all this rules you mentioned. Like "Need try to do best to hold" or "Build all your gold", "Dont build delays" and so on.
You would also make it banable to split 16 for a dd 17, or to save gold 16 in order to leak. Or to push like crazy 20, leak all lvl and send hard 24 or 26 ... All this things would get banable, and they are kinda important for the current gameplay.
So its not like "gogo take 2minutes and make a new rule you lazy noob-mods".

[nabo.]

Making a general clog rule saying something like "Do not intentionall clog by any means" may be hard to moderate.
There are several things that can cause clogging:
#1 Undervaluing => leaking a lot (usually pre lvl-10)
#2 Delays/splits => helps to leak more than people should, sync leak timing between players
#3 Behemoth/Demon/Kraken sends => Fat unit size helps clogging when colliding with other units.

Two benefits from clogging are:
1) Mass lumber gains through time = bigger sends (notably lvl 7, lvl 10)
2) Slow leaking = win King race (lvl 17)


The current clog rule only considers clog #1 by certain extent. Only reason its half recommended value is because we had doubts people doing math...and we did not want to restrict some yolos builds. It is still possible to clog with over half recommended value, but at least we are restricting some players from pushing too hard or more than one income suiciding. Anyway, not as big of a problem as in lihl.

Delay building is normally a legit strat: it slows your leaking timing.
Your 1) suggestion does not fully work. I can still build t2/t3 towers which are value that would not have mattered to my build much and still clog. We could ban delays all together, but do we want to restrict players where to build so much?

Also, what about split towers? I can build 1-2 t2 towers and split my tower and clog. Even if we ban delays, people can still have similar effect just splitting their towers...so we will have to ban split towers too? It is often used to dd on lvl 16... Perhaps saying only one person can split will solve the problem though.

We already banned dark green too. It seems that we are coming to a stage where we have to ban/restrict players from playing the map as how it was given... Note, players are SUPPOSED to freely be able to build where they want as long as the map allows them. This is why we need a new map. Instead of trying to fix everything with words and rule restrictions, we need a map which can handle current game meta.

Another gay problem with clogging on lvl 17 is because of Behe/Demon/Kraken sends. You can STILL clog with 40-50 leaks or something if there dd sends + kraken for instance. So, if I build 2 t2 delays or split and our team didnt leak much, but dd demons/krak or something and we clog and win king race, would you say this is intentional clogging?

Also, do tell me. If both teams built similar amount of delays, what would have happened to your game? Which side would have won?

Not sure where you been with lihl clog discussions, but as I mentioned, clogging is a result of exploitation + outdated map which cannot handle all yolos and delay/split building. Depending on your answers, I will see what to do.

[Akitos]

There is a difference between one or even two person/s undervalueing/splitting/delaying so your team can dd, and a whole team using gold on delay to clog... Ofc it's hard to find the perfect wording for this, and it surely isn't a solition to every single clogging issue, but it'd at least help restricting the massive abuse that is going on recently... When people still thought clogging was bannable, since everyone understood the rule as "DO NOT INTENTIONALLY CLOG & do don't be below 50% value" (instead of what it actually seems to be, which is just 50% rec value and clog allowed..), i encountered no clogging issues at all on 1,2k bot... Since roughly a week people have been abusing it frequently.

Delay building is normally a legit strat: it slows your leaking timing.
Your 1) suggestion does not fully work. I can still build t2/t3 towers which are value that would not have mattered to my build much and still clog. We could ban delays all together, but do we want to restrict players where to build so much?

If you use all your gold on shitty towers you can be punished super hard if we just send at another level than 17 for example, since u'll be weak overall. The biggest issue is people using all gold after 16 to build corner delay for 17, and that's what i'm asking to get banned. Ofc you'll still leak alot if u put all that gold from 16 into not so good towers within your build, but that'll still be way less clogging than with actual corner delay. And yes, splitting if you want to send should be ok on 1-2 people, but splitting without the intention to leak so u can send next lvl, but instead to force clog, should be bannable.

[nabo.]

So, you are saying that you approve clogging from little delays (t2s)?

What if I wanna split build 17 to dd send lvl 18 and I have like 4-5k lumber, so I decide to send 17 a demon also. Opposite team sent demons. Opposite team leaks from our demons. We win king race.

[Akitos]

No, i didn't say that, i quoted wrong statement by accident. Check again.

[Don_Killuminati]

There are 2 separate things, the intentional clog and not intentional.

The goal is to avoid the intentional clog. Making delay doesn't generate clog but rather the gold used for and didn't used to hold ur lane then, cuz delay finally is considered death value. So theoretically if both team build similar delays, and get similar send , the delay is canceled and only ur army matter.

So delay and split is 2 different things, for delay u can make a rule like "don't make over than 50gold to delay ur lane" to avoid to much death value and
for split , "only 1 player is allowed to split army for #1 dd, #2 if team need leaker ".

Actually in lihl the only clog problem is 17, when ppl wont try to hold and build craps towers, but we can not avoid it since we no possibility to check what opportunities they had to build, so ppl are free to build what they want.

But for pub, at least make a rule for not spliting to clog and not making strong delay like hydra and stuffs.

[nabo.]

If you use all your gold on shitty towers you can be punished super hard if we just send at another level than 17 for example, since u'll be weak overall.

This doesnt matter... since the assumption is that both teams will leak if either team sends. The delay building strat is with the intention to win a king race.

So lets say I delay with t2s or split and slow my leaks and the opposite team did not send anything. We leak little. You guys leak and lose.
The intention to delay to clog seems similar to me whether the opposite team sent on 17 or not.

So, you are saying that you approve clogging from little delays (t2s)?
What if I wanna split build 17 to dd send lvl 18 and I have like 4-5k lumber, so I decide to send 17 a demon also. Opposite team sent demons. Opposite team leaks from our demons. We win king race.

Also, do tell me. If both teams built similar amount of delays, what would have happened to your game? Which side would have won?

Do answer both quotes.

And yes, splitting if you want to send should be ok on 1-2 people, but splitting without the intention to leak so u can send next lvl, but instead to force clog, should be bannable.

Noted.

[nabo.]

So delay and split is 2 different things, for delay u can make a rule like "don't make over than 50gold to delay ur lane" to avoid to much death value and
for split , "only 1 player is allowed to split army for #1 dd, #2 if team need leaker ".

As I mentioned, something like this can work. But, as I said, better map would be best instead of making so many rules restricting plays.

Actually in lihl the only clog problem is 17, when ppl wont try to hold and build craps towers, but we can not avoid it since we no possibility to check what opportunities they had to build, so ppl are free to build what they want.

But for pub, at least make a rule for not spliting to clog and not making strong delay like hydra and stuffs.

What makes you say that lihl people wont start doing this in pub and we will again have a similar discussion again? The delay crap we are having now started in lihl obviously. People do what they do to win.

[Don_Killuminati]

Nabo. wrote :
What makes you say that lihl people wont start doing this in pub and we will again have a similar discussion again? The delay crap we are having now started in lihl obviously

Pub already have all clogs strategies, but the difference between pub and lihl is, in pub only the rules run and no one care about drama and in lihl ppl try to avoid dramas so the only way to clog is building craps on 17 .

But if u did a clog rule for under 50% value recommented, at least u should induct a rule for split and strong delay pending brouder's map to give more meaning to this rule.

P.S : I was banned 4dayz for suicide mortar with no intention to clog, and i lost a game because ennemy team had intention to clog and it was obvious and easily preventable by a split rule.

[nabo.]

So so far, something like: "Delays cannot exceed 100 value. " "Splitting without the intention to dd will be bannable. Note, only one player is enough to split for the team".

Once I hear akitos' responses to my questions, I'll discuss with staff and come up with something.

[RadiantCrystal]

I think something like "Any action to delay mobs to reach king or clog in mid without the intention to strengthen the send for the next level should be banned"
Any action can be defined as building strong delays, building multiple delays, building units to intentionally slow lane when a better choice can be made, antistuck etc

[Don_Killuminati]

Splitting not just to dd, split can be used lvl 11 for example if 1player need to leak, and there is no link with clog.
So something like : " only 1 player is allowed to split army: for dd, or if leaker is ob to leak and need to do it to be able to".