Balance Suggestions

[Neco]

Hi,

Here's an "official" balance suggestions thread. Please keep balance related suggestions here.

Please keep in mind that any personal attacks will most likely be moderated! Looking at some people in particular, mostly of the Shadowy nature.

Please also try to be direct in with what you feel is imbalanced. For instance, saying "Titan has been NERFED!" is bad when you really believe that Defenders have been buffed too much in an area. If you're clear about your reasoning, then it will be easier for others to suggest their ideas or place feedback.

As always, 4.0.0 is in a beta state so don't assume that everything in the latest version is set in stone! It's a time for experimenting, so please keep calm and understand that well thought out balance changes will most likely be implemented and kept or reverted depending on feedback.

Thank you!


EDIT: Before you start posting changes, please be aware that there is a released version that has not been put on the bot (due to lack of testing currently). I've included it's changelog below so you don't have to go searching for it.

Spoiler!

0100d Changelog:

• Remove Glacious' ranged attack.
• Removed the ability for Morph to switch to Warrior form from Beast (you can still go back to Builder form).
• Investigated and (possibly) fixed the -ban system sometimes not working.
• Fixed the Greater Turtle item having low hitpoints unlike other Egg items.
• Fixed Greater Turtle Scales and normal Turtle Scales sharing a cooldown.
• Changed Magnataur's Ice Palace Ultimate Tower to a 2x2 size.
• Fixed Pirate's Tavern Ultimate Tower having a messed up tooltip (it cut off before explaining how to make it rebuildable).
• Fixed the Trident Item (Titan's version) saying that 4 of them combined into a Trident of Power (when it actually only requires 3 as noted in other areas).
• Fixed the Random Ultimate Tower recipe claiming it doesn't require an egg (it does).
• Reduced the replenish interval of Titan Eggs from the secret shop to 30s. Added a stock delay time of 10 minutes. Raised maximum amount to 3.
• Added an incremental cost to Magnataur's Enhanced Defenses upgrade. It now costs 500w/750w/1000w/1250w.
• Added a unique buff for Voltron's Atmospheric Charge ability.
• Fixed Magnataur's Arctic Walls have tooltips saying they require food and gold.
• Added the ability for Demonicus' spawns to be able to spawn off critters.
• Fixed Demonicus' and his minions' heal tooltip being cut off when learning.
• Demonologist's Summons:
  • Changed all summons to Medium armor from Large.
  • Reduced Mana Burn from Fel Hounds to 5 mana (from 20).
  • Changed Demonic Arachnathid's damage type to piercing.
  • Changed the Advanced Summoning Techniques upgrade (commonly referred to as the "doubles" upgrade):
    • Added an additional level (level 3). It will allow you to summon 4 Fel Hounds.
    • Reduced the amount of Demon Overlords summonable to 1 at all levels.
    • Changed costs to 5g/10g/15g and 1000w/1250w/1500w.
    • Changed time taken to research to 15/30/45 seconds.
  • Bound Summoning upgrade now requires level 3 of the Advanced Summoning Techniques upgrade instead of level 2.

[Lynx]

Lucidious' pearl is pretty shitty at the moment. Increasing cooldown and decreasing radius was perhaps a little bit too hard of a nerf. I think he was fine in 3.0.9d to be honest.
Golding feels smoother now but it's really much harder to play the camping strategy with the reduced amount of gold needed by builders and the wotw nerf, it might not feel as a big deal but I consider the change to be rather large. this version you get gold before you wait the 1sec, instead of waiting 1 sec to get gold.
I think balthasar is too cheap at the moment, adding merchant in the list of requirements to research him would be a lot better since it would also give a reason to build merchant as demonoligist.
Maybe increase nuke area of Sypherious' nuke a little bit.
Stealers wotw suggestion was good imo, make the cooldown as 3-4 seconds so if the builder detonates a worker they can't be 2xwotw but if they don't they can be 2xwotw.

[Haunt]

I don't think it's a good idea to nerf demot oo much. imo it's not good to go from best builder to worst builder in one patch xD

tl;dr Neco's changelog regarding demo seems fine imo (for now).

I disagree about that WOTW idea Lynx has. I don't think it's fair that builders must run around with one harvester to counter WOTW. Just think how easy it would be to kill pretty much anyone who is either noob or doesn't take the game too seriously.

[Burn]

Agreed with everything except the golding thing.

I like the golding thing. :3 It makes it easier to troll titan, but that one extra gold really isn't helping the builder that much and makes it so much more fun for riskier players.

From the previous topic:

Nerf Bubonicus plague so it doesn't kill but lowers to 1HP like 3.0.9d.
Add 2 seconds to Bubonicus Heal CD.
Give Morphling's spell shield back!
Buff Morphling towers by 5 damage on all levels.
Reduce range on Pirate, Goblin, Dryad and Radioactive Hunter by 100.
Reduce SoM magic resistance to 25%, but make it diminishly stackable, so four SoM will be 100% magic resistance. (8 eggs)
Or Something like +50%, +25%, +12.5%, +6.25%, +3.125%, etc. (I believe DotA2 made it diminishly stackable somehow) with hood of defiance.

From Suggestion's topic (back when I bothered to make suggestions since I didn't know it'd mostly get ignored):
Magnataur should be nukable and be able to be WOTW in avatar form.
Change Tauren back to normal, he did not deserve such a nerf. Make his AR cheaper to get to.
Make tauren megas require a 25 gold upgrade in ARC.
Also, give continuous mana upgrades for Mag and Tauren in the research centre for 1g and 250w. Tauren especially needs this.
Ogre fart cast time -> instant
Nature RC 200 wood -> 150 wood
Nature Hunter research time -> halved
Nature Hunter armour reduced by 75%
Troll tower ranges should be reduced to 700/700/700/700 like they were before to hold its "uniqueness", and give him his much needed nerf. Just the food is not enough.
Make the minion invulnerability punishable.
Tommy gun base needs a buff imho, like not being able to be nuked from the back and the corner.
I think heroes shouldn't drop items, but builders should, which is basically for the 90g towers.

Radioactive is actually more OP than 3.0.9d Radio, because now he can get mega gold towers without using any extra gold. The item swapping is also a huge buff seeing as you can swap them around, and other builders can buy the gold towers for you, making a mega gold tower radio base easily. Reducing the cast time on his shield is another huge buff, which means Radioactive is still a top-tier builder; arguably a better builder than troll. The only nerf he had this patch was to require him 10 gold to allow the purchase of the gold towers from the RC. Basically just make it so other builders can't buy from his RC somehow.

Far top base is an incredibly isolated base, which makes it a really bad base to base in, since if you base there and spotted too early, the titan has no trouble in trapping you in that base, especially now that TP staffs are so expensive, and top right base, arguably one of the best bases atm, is so close by anyway.

-Burn

[Neco]

@Burn I'd suggest updating that post. A lot of it is outdated.

Your suggestions aren't ignored, they're considered just like everyone else's.

[Burn]

Wut, which ones are outdated?

-Burn

[Neco]

Basically just make it so other builders can't buy from his RC somehow.

Was looking at this in particular and assumed you hadn't updated them.

[Lynx]

I disagree about that WOTW idea Lynx has. I don't think it's fair that builders must run around with one harvester to counter WOTW. Just think how easy it would be to kill pretty much anyone who is either noob or doesn't take the game too seriously.

wotw was fine in the last version tbh, besides map awareness isn't that hard of a skill to acquire to dodge titan.

Also neco, you updated the terrain with a lot more 1x1 builder paths and removed some building jumps for builders. I would rather like to see more building jumps and less 1x1 builder paths. (examples of 1x1 builder paths, top left path, bot mid path, lumber base next to euro path) (examples of removed building jumps, mid bottom island(can still be done but with more buildings), bottom left lumber base where stealer always lumbers).

[narbtit]

Love the ice palace and egg changes.

Lynx what do you mean reduced gold needed by builders? Also keep in mind some prices have increased, including aura and spiney to 90g for my poor nat.

Also I like how golding is now, run in and pick for one immediately run away.

Also agree Rad is a bit op atm his bases are monstrous and rarely do I see a titan break them.

[Lynx]

[quote="narbtit"][/quote]

Builders need less gold. For the most powerful base you can build(disregarding ulti towers), you only need 45g and that is for arc. Arc basically gives you everything, megas, tower upgrade, wall upgrade, and worker upgrade.

I do still consider the golding to be imbalanced. Especially with the wotw nerf.

Rad has always been op if given enough gold, and since it's easier to gold rad seems to be a lot more powerful. Don't nerf rad, nerf golding.

[narbtit]

Yes maybe some of the post-mega upgrades should be locked behind merch to even out the power.

[Burn]

After a little think, I think double WOTW increases entertainment to play against decent builders who are afraid of double WOTW. Right now, it's far too hard to get a first minion against half-decent builders, that's why I never pick Demonicus any more.

I think if it was put up to a vote, double WOTW should come back. If you spend more than 10G trying to kill a builder with multiple WOTW detos, I think titan deserves it, since those are actually pretty hard to pull off, especially with delay.

For merchant, I think Merchant is fine, because you guys are leaving out the most important thing: Lumber feed. With merchant, you can get a full mega base up with a few lumber poolers and that shit is way more OP than end-game towers 50mins in without fear of not getting enough wood from workers due to titan nuking them down.

Merchant is still OP yo, lumber feeding is OP as hell.

-Burn

[Merex]

And how common is this method of lumber feeding exactly?

[Lynx]

All of the games i played in 3.0.9d had lumber pooling in them.

[Burn]

Explanation of why Merchant is better than ARC in most scenarios:

Spoiler!

If you have a re-waller and/or lumber feeder, merchant is better than ARC in 90% of games. People just like to be greedy and go for the ultra late game, when in reality you have to focus on the current towers, which, in reality, Merchant is better for 90% of games because lumber pooling and truesight is so damn important.

So unless you have a good Demo or Gnoll for truesight, Merchant is most likely the better option.

The thing is you can still lumber feed with ARC, but you have to bring a turtle from the secret shop to your base. With Merchant, you are guaranteed a fucktonne of wood the instant you make it and truesight. I can give you my last replay where Merchant won me the game hard because the player didn't build an ARC.

TLDR; Merchant is for mid-game, ARC is for late game. Since most games end at mid-game (around 30minutes and 20k wood), ARC is not necessary because you don't have enough wood to get all those upgrades without a good lumber feeder. And Merchant gives you safe lumber feeding at a very steady pace. The main argument here is you can still lumber feed with ARC, but you have to buy items from secret shop then bring it all the way back to your base to feed, and you don't get blink summons or the OP gnoll tracker.

That brings me to my suggestion: Ogre should be able to fully upgrade his damage on his towers like 3.0.9d with just merchant, but need ARC for range past 800 (just like 3.0.9d).

-Burn