[LTD] Ban Delays when sending on 1200+ bot

[Rapporter]

Cause delays serve no purpose but clogging. Delays can generally serve as getting some more time, when you wanna send at a later level. But at the level you are sending for it serves no other purpose but clogging and thus should be forbidden. "Do not intentionally clog". The outcome of delays, when you send (and your opponents too), is pretty obvious. You clog, and that _IS_ intentional.

So you leak way more than the ones, who don't build delays, but you leak slower. So, although you leak only 20 (including 8 demons for example) and have more heals, you still lose, although the opponents leak near to 80 thanks to the clog.

[RadiantCrystal]

I vote against

[Rapporter]

I vote against

What's your reasoning?

It seems clearly obvious that it is against ENT's rule of clogging on purpose.

[RadiantCrystal]

lol, cause it's not banned in lihl and I play lihl

[Rapporter]

lol, cause it's not banned in lihl and I play lihl

This wouldn't affect the lihl bots. It is for 1200+ bot. If people at lihl wanna change this too, that is up to them and none of my concern.

But as far as I can understand you, you disregard the argument that I put up, and just basically say "Lihl > 1200+" and "Since delays are allowed in lihl, it gotta be allowed in anything 'below' Lihl"? I agree with "Lihl > 1200+", but could we put the other thing aside and focus the main issue?!

Delays cause clog (of course not always, if one party holds....but in that case you didn't need the delay/clog to begin with). That statement is undeniably true and known to all 1200+ players.
So knowing that you will leak, knowing that you and your opponents will send, knowing that your delay will inevitably cause a clog, how come this isn't banned yet?

It can still be a decisive factor, when you clog although you didn't send but your opponents did. But I don't wanna argue about that right now.

The problem is that the team, which intentionally breaks the rules by clogging on purpose, wins, because their sends arrive at opponents' king before their's arrive at your king.

I see no flaw in my arguments right now, so I would like to hear something against it, which is backed up with why I'm wrong.

[RadiantCrystal]

Not my concern either, some people are trying to get into lihl by practicing in 1200+, so it does indeed affect to some degree. Personally if it's an obvious abuse, then you could report. If it's just simple delay to win game (no clog but for example, delay so that demon reach king later) then I think it's just a tactic

[Rapporter]

Not my concern either, some people are trying to get into lihl by practicing in 1200+, so it does indeed affect to some degree. Personally if it's an obvious abuse, then you could report. If it's just simple delay to win game (no clog but for example, delay so that demon reach king later) then I think it's just a tactic

Sadly that doesn't work as the rules are now.
You clog with max 120 value delay and you don't get banned. I can easily link you to the ban-request, which was handled that way. I PMed the mod and asked if this is real and if the rules are really meant like this. And he replied with yes. We had 4 vs 2 heals and barely leaked at all, but sadly all demons. They leaked 80+ and we lose.

I also don't care, if no clog happens. But the clog should be punished. Even if 120 value wasn't exceeded.
It just looked easier to ban delays when you send than the other thing, cause it leaves too many grey areas to fill.
Personally I'm fine either way.

[nabo.]

The sad truth is, there are clogs we cannot avoid w/e rules we implement.

Problem is that delays can lead to "further" clogging. Whichever result, we will be eliminating "plays" one way or another.

If the community wants delays gone for good, I wouldnt mind. I just did not want to restrict so much space players are originally entitled to build + when building delays can be considered a strategy.

[Rapporter]

The sad truth is, there are clogs we cannot avoid w/e rules we implement.

Problem is that delays can lead to "further" clogging. Whichever result, we will be eliminating "plays" one way or another.

If the community wants delays gone for good, I wouldnt mind. I just did not want to restrict so much space players are originally entitled to build + when building delays can be considered a strategy.

I don't mind delays, when you don't send. So I'm not asking to ban delays for good.

Delays have 2 purposes, as far as I see it:
1) Cause clog
2) Delay the rounds UNTIL you want to send, so you can send more.

I have no quarrels with #2. If you don't send, while you are delaying, but your opponents send, then that's ok. [Well, not totally ok, but we can easily ignore that one.]
So at the point, when you are sending, the delays have outlived their days of usefulness within the parameters of ENT's rules (Don't clog intentionally). Keeping the delays, when you are sending, is intentional clogging, thus should be banned, if a clog happens. You guys can handle it like the lvl 7 clog. You can be under half of recommended value, even 200 value as far as anyone cares, but you risk to clog. And if the clog happens, the mods check for half recommended value and ban those.

But, as I said, the delays have no purpose anymore, when you send. They were meant to get more to time to the point, when you are sending. Not any further. After that, it is just clog. Intentional one on top of that.

I don't think my reasoning is far-fetched or that I'm asking for something unreasonable. I've put down several facts and all the change I am asking for is that delays should be sold, when sending. Rebuild them again the level after that one, if those people want to.

[nabo.]

Do not intentionally clog (***Note that if there is no clog, these restrictions will not matter) :

• Must build close to half recommended value, unless incomer in cross.
• Splits and delays cannot exceed over 120 value in total, unless valuer in cross.
• Splits may only be built at levels where your team is not sending

You can also delay to leak slower send or not.

Anyway, if people do want delays gone for good, we can remove #2 of the clog rule and edit #3 with "Delays including splits..."

[Uryn]

The only reason why I would like to keep the 120 value rule is, because without it it won't be possible anymore to build an upgraded ent in front for easier level 10 or 20 hold.

[nabo.]

The only reason why I would like to keep the 120 value rule is, because without it it won't be possible anymore to build an upgraded ent in front for easier level 10 or 20 hold.

Exploiting ent's root skill to make bosses stuck is bannable as it is a glitch abuse.

[Mercy]

@Uryn you are not allowed to use ent in that way, as it is a glitch because the entangle freezes longer than it should, giving your team an advantage.

Other than that, i do agree delays when sending, if built that level, should be banned.

[Rapporter]

You can also delay to leak slower send or not.

But isn't that what is causing the additional and intentional clog? Even if that "only adds up" to the clog, which would happen nontheless, we should try to minimize it as much as possible.

Anyway, if people do want delays gone for good, we can remove #2 of the clog rule and edit #3 with "Delays including splits..."

Only #3 would need to include delays instead of just splits. The rest can stay, as far as I'm concerned.

[nabo.]

You can also delay to leak slower send or not.

But isn't that what is causing the additional and intentional clog?

Partially. It wont clog if units are leaked at different times (ex. depends on how fast your towers clear/hold wave + whether all build delays or not). Big units with high collision size such as demons, krakens, behamoths, etc cause clogging also = big issue we cannot fix.