An upgraded wotw

[idtitan]

I was curious what your thoughts are an upgraded version of the wotw. Similar to the idea behind wards (eternal/titanic). My general curiosity is having a wotw that is perninant and wont disapear after being used.

Cheers

Kent

[Merex]

Make it accessible for builders and the passive speed with like a 2min cd.

[Lynx]

Builders doesn't need more curling. It's pretty useless item for it to be purchased as Titan, the only way it would be worth if another element were to be added for example cycloning an ally.

[idtitan]

Builders arent accessable to any of the upgraded items that titan is. Why start now? They cannot use floating eyes. Or titanic/eternal wards. Nor can they combine 3 tridents to make a power trident or use a brezerker stone. I think if speed is a thing builders are lacking, its possible enough for them to do the random tower trade in hopes for a speed tower or aura tree. Or stack wotw in an inventory. Now you could argue stacking wotw for a titan inventory. I just thought there could be a cool upgrade.

Cheers

-Kent

[idtitan]

Builders doesn't need more curling. It's pretty useless item for it to be purchased as Titan, the only way it would be worth if another element were to be added for example cycloning an ally.

Or maybe dealing 75 damage?

-Kent

[Neco]

Now you could argue stacking wotw for a titan inventory.

They do stack for Titans too.

[idtitan]

@ Neco

I know I was stating you could argue stacking wotw as titan would merit not having an upgrade, but that i think an upgrade for wotw could be cool. You're using wotw to try and get kills generally early on when you don't have as much gold to spare. If the wotw gets denied by a deto of a worker it easily becomes a waste of 5-10-15g etc.,. With Eternal Wards, using a ward no longer becomes a waste if it gets killed or your ward block fails.

Cheers

-Kent

[NotYacapo]

I like this idea. hate to keep wasting gold and sometimes doesn't even work out good

[ShadowZz]

That's why it's a risk. You spend 5g and either end up with a kill or nothing. It's a wildcard. It's cheap and doesn't always pay off.

[NotYacapo]

yeah but this game is already hard enough as it is to be titan. I don't think there is one person who can win every single titan game they play. If we do this it makes it a bit easier for tit. there are people who can win 8/10 games as titan. but like pubs almost never

[Lynx]

Wotw is a shit item currently, totally countered by worker detonate. Need to buff it, I recommend reducing the cd to be equal as the duration. Or enabling self-cast.

[ShadowZz]

@NotYacapo There should never be one person who wins every single game they play. If that was the case then the game would clearly not be balanced.

@Lynx- Unless it's an inhouse no one dets wotw. Even in inhouses people leave workers at mid and still don't deto. The problem with wotw before was that it counters literally every single escape ability in the game. Titans don't even have to explore other options to kill builders such as ward blocking, mirror, good ww usage, positioning (more promptly minions) because they can just wotw > escape ability 1 > wotw > escape ability 2 > wotw > deto > wotw > deto > wotw > dead.
Reducing the cooldown to the duration would not help average titans win games. It will only help already good titans win more games. You have a good w/l as titan w/o the old wotw. Giving a good player wotw back will only make them go 8/10, 9/10 with titan and it just shouldn't be like that. Perfect balance vs similar skilled players should give you a 50% win ratio with titan at most. Considering there's always people worse than you in a game when you titan you should sit at 50-60-70% if the game was balanced.
As for average titans they should sit at a 30-40% win rate given that their is no way to have perfectly balanced teams and one good builder can change the whole game.

Edit: If anything having wotw the way it is right now increases the skill gap for players because good titans like you, burn, foss, beek etc can still win games using other options.

[Lynx]

As long as we give players a fair counter to every aspect to the game, it is balanced. Whether they use it or not is a question of their skill level, it shouldn't be a concern. Reducing the cooldown would better suit the style of the balance we should strive for, as in a game where the players use different methods of counter playing each other in order to win the game. Currently I think there aren't enough methods for players to use to create big counter plays or alike. Reducing cooldown of wand of the wind will definitely be our best choice for the most enjoyable game.

Edit concerning your edit: Your focus lies at the wrong side of the table, sure it will ease the difficulty for the Titan, but the main point is to increase the difficulty for Builders. To survive now there is very little that needs to be done. Micro-managing 2 workers around with your Builder increases builder skill gap between the good and the bad, and if you do not choose to do so the risk of dying is larger than not, but currently the risk is equal.

[ShadowZz]

Don't get me wrong. I agree the skill cap needs to be wavered for builders as right now your either really bad or average. Then there's not many ways to "stand out" from the crowd unless you consider wall-walking/st walking. The problem is giving the titan something which allows bad/average titans to stomp because bad/average builders never deto won't increase the skill gap. Good builders will deto and bad/average players will just die, period. All it will do is let average titans win by exploiting wotw and create a huge gap between average and good builders instead of a staggered one which isn't good for balance. You get what I mean?

There's other ways you could increase the skill gap for builders like editing hunters for example which I've been pushing for quite some time. Making them more micro-able/useful/ more detrimental to winning a game can help to gradually separate average players from people like yourself. Forcing a cap on players per base can help to gradually create a gaop between skilled db's vs average db's like in inhouses for example. Likewise UP mode was a move in this direction, forcing players to adapt to different builders and not guaranteeing them 1 builder.

tl dr; I agree there needs to be amendments to create a skill gap for builders but giving titan an "ability" that is a guaranteed kill vs anyone who isn't top tier and can respond won't help that.

[idtitan]

@ Shadowzz
"but giving titan an "ability" that is a guaranteed kill vs anyone who isn't top tier and can respond won't help that."

I think wotw is a guaranteed kill against noobs already. If they try to stop you with any range of skill you can debuff with your punish center and proceed to attack the builder.

I can agree with you that decreasing the CD of wotw would significantly increase the kills that happen. However I do not agree that it is a guaranteed kill. If the builders are already using workers to counter the wotw there is nothing stopping them from continuing it. I think if the CD was reduced it would certainly increase double wotw. You could stack them 5 deep and just wotw till your hearts content. Which I don't believe is fair... Maybe currently it is balanced..

Back to my original idea of creating a permanent wotw that doesn't disappear after you use it. The only balance I'm trying to aim at is Builders being able to full deny a lumber base behind upgraded walls (keeping their food at max) and continuously having workers to debuff wotw with. If the titan is hurting at that point he is probably camping for a kill and wasting 20g this is game ruining. The workers that are being summoned literally cost nothing but food . However if he decides to use that 20g on a perm wotw i think it should be a choice that is available. 3x Wotw @5gold + 1x recipe @5gold.

@Neco I also think it would be beneficial for Titans of all skill to have a range as to how far they can cast certain items or even skill etc. Similar to how builders can check the attack range of their towers. Idk if thats possible but i feel that it would be helpful for the yee old ward blocks and ww chain nukes.

Cheers

-Kent