Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Moderator: LIHL Staff

User avatar
Jules
Resource Storage
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:25 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby Jules » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:05 pm

archol wrote:In case of balancing (towers, king spell, ...) ill suggest a discussion here to get the most possible feedback

Though i do have a question ... will there be different modes too? For example that every player is teaming up against the AI (with different difficulties) and protect the king for many rounds (or infinitely) of levels etc?

Yes! The primary game mode will be classic 4v4, but we will be supporting alternate ways to play the game such as this. We are also fully supporting modding and will be releasing an editor as or more powerful than the Warcraft III World Editor.

Diablo_
Protector of Nature
Posts: 3180
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:26 pm
Has thanked: 55 times
Been thanked: 145 times

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby Diablo_ » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:42 pm

It's hard to give balance feedback without actually playing the game first. Things like enchantments but also a different amount of spawned creeps, different creep and tower behaviour etc just make it not really compareable to our current version hence feedback of it doesn't really mean anything.
-----
LIHL player parser, a tool to automatically parse LIHL players' Elo and create reports for it: CLICK

MarshMallows

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby MarshMallows » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:51 pm

We will need to play the map. It is a new game though, so we don't know how the towers will be or are meant to be. Maybe "zombie" is the new archer lol

User avatar
Jules
Resource Storage
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:25 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby Jules » Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:26 am

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean like tactical balance changes (e.g. this turret should be stronger). More so, inconsistencies and things that are exploited and things that can be systematically improved. For example, if crossing is always right or never right or some big design flaw with the game. Tactical balance changes will come later once the game is in closed beta. :)

MarshMallows

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby MarshMallows » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:15 am

First suggestion: Remove cross! I assume there is no merc builder?

MarshMallows

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby MarshMallows » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:18 am

Are you aware of the big issues we had with clogging? Thats something to look out for also.

User avatar
broud3r
ENT Staff
Posts: 1502
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:00 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 119 times

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby broud3r » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:18 am

i dont know about the new engine and the current plans with the game and i assume some of the problems getting fixed with the new engine anyway so i just throw in some of the current thinks about the map.

wc3 has problems with a high amount of units(with their collision) so they dont move properly and get stucked for a short time after getting a new order.
on cross you fight 1 side after the other so there are more creeps alive for a longer time which makes it easier to hold cause of the mentioned engine problem and the bad ai which just juggle around or stuck sometimes. this impact is way bigger on cross than on solo build where all sides kill at the same time.
for this reason rounds like 9 and 11 which got a high amount of creeps are fairly easy on 8 player games and way harder on 1-4 player games.
there are more reasons why cross is pretty strong like the double chance of getting good towers but since the last time i played cross active is like 2 years ago i cant recall all of them.
it surely depends on the balacing but in general i would allow crossing on the normal games but disable the possibility on the mastermind mode.


leaking some units to gain more time is a good tactical choice but pushing hard with some units and stall time with the leaks on the king by upgrading regeneration and hp without attack should get more punished or somehow avoided like forcing to upgrade attack after some hp and/or reg or giving the enemy team always 100% of the leaking gold should balance it as well.
an extreme case was common on the old map but can still work on the "fixed" one is to sell all towers on round 4, push hard and upgrade kings hp and reg during this round by stalling time on round 4 and 5 you are able to send a few thousand lumber on round 6 or 7 which is pretty much impossible to hold.
the main problem here is that it doesnt matter if you leak 40 or 100 creeps to the king since he cant be attacked by more then a specific amount maybe 40 for round 5 and 7 but just 16 for round 6 for example which makes it impossible to lose hp on this round which stalls alot of time.
same strategie works after round 7 to send a high amount on round 10 ( my record on the new map was overall 14000 lumber on round 10 and way more on the old map)


on a race(when both teams send and wont survive mostly on round 15 or 17) players build units in the front corner of their side so the incoming creeps change the order of move/attack to attack and stuck for a short time after killing this unit they stuck again before they switch to the move order again this way you can get a few seconds. as a side effect the sent units get blocked and are more likely to stuck in the back with the bigger collision size, take longer to attack and if they leak they reach the king way after the other creeps which deal less damage.
this way the race is not decided which team leaks less units or has more heals.

king can be juggled to stall more time as well (by attacking the opposite creeps of the current one) caused by the turn animation so there should be a fixed attackanimation/time.

pulling units (means attack and kill units from an allied lane) which can be played like cross should be impossible as well on the mastermind mode

well and i guess theres no need to talk about the current antistuck and the abuse of it since those thing wont exist on ltd2

so i hope it the post helps abit and like many others I can hardly wait for the release. :o

Edit: a system to give each player the same value of sends instead of the same amount would be fine it feels too bad to lose due to 4 demons on the holder lane :(
Last edited by broud3r on Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
These users thanked the author broud3r for the post:
Jules (Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:04 am)

eldryan
Plague Treant
Posts: 1695
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:44 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby eldryan » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:50 am

I think there could be more arenas. Design units to fight each other every round, winner gets bonus golds. Sends help units for income.

User avatar
Jamo
Treant
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:57 pm
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby Jamo » Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:49 am

Many points have been mentioned by all the way more experienced players than me.

Just my thoughts about cross: I would keep it. It's basically a different game mode, which can also be nice to play if people want. But is has to be turned off in, what everybody calls mastermind mode, I guess. One thing making it easy is of course the builder gets the double amount of gold but only kills one wave at a time. So killing is mega fast and efficient.

What I am wondering: Now, most computers start lagging during the game sooner or later simply because of the massive amount of creeps. WC3 is a 15 years old game, how will it be when all this is transported to a new engine? Will it be such, that the engine is just waaaay better and more efficient so that things like that aren't a problem anymore?
Last edited by Jamo on Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
broud3r
ENT Staff
Posts: 1502
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:00 am
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 119 times

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby broud3r » Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:44 pm

@jamo the delay for old pcs could be already fixed by rewriting the code of the map with jass. i already started it but it is too much work for me alone and am getting busy with exams and gaming so i had to stop it.

User avatar
Jamo
Treant
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:57 pm
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby Jamo » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:05 pm

@broud3r cool, didn't know that. Thx!

User avatar
SLSGuennter
Protector of Nature
Posts: 3075
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:39 am
Location: Ingame ... most likely
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 102 times

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby SLSGuennter » Fri Feb 12, 2016 4:22 pm

archol wrote:Though i do have a question ... will there be different modes too? For example that every player is teaming up against the AI (with different difficulties) and protect the king for many rounds (or infinitely) of levels etc?

Try reading in the LTD2 Forum a bit ( http://www.legiontd2.com/community/ ) and you will find answers to most questions ;)
At start they will most likely focus on the good old LTD, but later on (if the game is up and running and got a decent playerbase) there will be time to implement other funmodes.
Gunther and the Sunshine-Girls. Hell Yeah

User avatar
Jules
Resource Storage
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:25 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby Jules » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:54 am

MarshMallows wrote:First suggestion: Remove cross! I assume there is no merc builder?

Merc will be removed. That was not part of the original game that Lisk designed and was added later.

User avatar
Jules
Resource Storage
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:25 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby Jules » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:55 am

MarshMallows wrote:Are you aware of the big issues we had with clogging? Thats something to look out for also.

Thanks for the heads up. Clogging is an artifact of Warcraft 3. It won't be an issue with Legion TD 2. :)

User avatar
Jules
Resource Storage
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:25 pm
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Legion TD 2: Standalone Sequel to Legion TD

Postby Jules » Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:01 am

broud3r wrote:i dont know about the new engine and the current plans with the game and i assume some of the problems getting fixed with the new engine anyway so i just throw in some of the current thinks about the map.

wc3 has problems with a high amount of units(with their collision) so they dont move properly and get stucked for a short time after getting a new order.
on cross you fight 1 side after the other so there are more creeps alive for a longer time which makes it easier to hold cause of the mentioned engine problem and the bad ai which just juggle around or stuck sometimes. this impact is way bigger on cross than on solo build where all sides kill at the same time.
for this reason rounds like 9 and 11 which got a high amount of creeps are fairly easy on 8 player games and way harder on 1-4 player games.
there are more reasons why cross is pretty strong like the double chance of getting good towers but since the last time i played cross active is like 2 years ago i cant recall all of them.
it surely depends on the balacing but in general i would allow crossing on the normal games but disable the possibility on the mastermind mode.


leaking some units to gain more time is a good tactical choice but pushing hard with some units and stall time with the leaks on the king by upgrading regeneration and hp without attack should get more punished or somehow avoided like forcing to upgrade attack after some hp and/or reg or giving the enemy team always 100% of the leaking gold should balance it as well.
an extreme case was common on the old map but can still work on the "fixed" one is to sell all towers on round 4, push hard and upgrade kings hp and reg during this round by stalling time on round 4 and 5 you are able to send a few thousand lumber on round 6 or 7 which is pretty much impossible to hold.
the main problem here is that it doesnt matter if you leak 40 or 100 creeps to the king since he cant be attacked by more then a specific amount maybe 40 for round 5 and 7 but just 16 for round 6 for example which makes it impossible to lose hp on this round which stalls alot of time.
same strategie works after round 7 to send a high amount on round 10 ( my record on the new map was overall 14000 lumber on round 10 and way more on the old map)


on a race(when both teams send and wont survive mostly on round 15 or 17) players build units in the front corner of their side so the incoming creeps change the order of move/attack to attack and stuck for a short time after killing this unit they stuck again before they switch to the move order again this way you can get a few seconds. as a side effect the sent units get blocked and are more likely to stuck in the back with the bigger collision size, take longer to attack and if they leak they reach the king way after the other creeps which deal less damage.
this way the race is not decided which team leaks less units or has more heals.

king can be juggled to stall more time as well (by attacking the opposite creeps of the current one) caused by the turn animation so there should be a fixed attackanimation/time.

pulling units (means attack and kill units from an allied lane) which can be played like cross should be impossible as well on the mastermind mode

well and i guess theres no need to talk about the current antistuck and the abuse of it since those thing wont exist on ltd2

so i hope it the post helps abit and like many others I can hardly wait for the release. :o

Edit: a system to give each player the same value of sends instead of the same amount would be fine it feels too bad to lose due to 4 demons on the holder lane :(


Thanks for the detailed feedback!

1) Clogged units won't be an issue.
2) Thanks for telling me about stalling - upgrading the King's regen and HP and not the health. We'll keep note of this.
3) Thanks for telling me about the issue where units circle around the King and don't attack him because there are so many. Noted.
4) The issue of units getting stuck/clogged will be fixed.

Hugely helpful reading all your comments. You seem very knowledgeable about the game, and I'd love to talk more at some point. :)


Return to “LIHL Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests