New Rules to Island defense!

[ShadowWeaver]

Builder Suicide should be Bannable unless special circumstances i.e. last man standing.
Mainly because you work hard to break a base and bam!, the builder suicides.

No Triple Bases or anything above excluding support units. This is something that a lot of people are finding annoying, where people triple base or quad base early making it impossible to siege. As a noob titan in practice, I'm finding it annoying that after getting lucky and killing a mini early, people triple/quad base, and other people are finding this annoying too i.e. foss.

[Merex]

Why ban someone trying to reduce your feed? Breaking a base instantly gives you access to a large sum of feed, also, the builder in question can be avoided if you focus just right. Also, if he suicides it would also benefit you prior to loss due to the +10g and a minion. Over-all, this would have to come off as game ruining or game breaking but given that this happens a lot and it's just within everyday ID, I doubt it to be implemented unless a solid argument. It's not just the titan's side, but the builders too. Remember that.

Triple/quad bases are actually what's keeping ID alive tbh. Speaking generally, I believe at-least 50% of the games based on an assumption of my own, would result in a heavy victory to the titan. Though I may not play as much, since -UP is also a default mode aka - less chance of support, this shouldn't be too threatening in your pursuit to victory unless it is obviously every single builder in a base after 1 death but then that's just unlikely and silly.

Anyways, since it's ID and it's community is very much alive, why not get some community input?
@Haunt @fullmelthash @Krazyyy @Burn @Lynx @ShadowZz @Photon_man24

[Hash]

Well imo if you suicide your builder to the titan while hes sieges your base, you shouldn't get banned for that. The fact that a builder is trying to suicide during the siege usually means that the titan is already sufficiently fed, and doesn't necessarily NEED the feed from the base. Like avion stated the titan also gets a minion and 10 gold, its not like the titan is completely losing out because the builder decided to suicide.

I don't think anyone likes going up against trip/quad bases as titan but I also think they should be legal in pub ID games considering how the game is right now. Afaik neco made titan easier to play in 4.0.0 rather than in 3.0.9, considering that fact as well as the amount of new players that play and don't understand the concept of how feed works in ID, sometimes it is absolutely needed to triple or quad to actually win the game for builders.

I feel there is more of a problem with mass builders leaving when a titan gets a kill or two and like 2-4 builders just leave immediately after it happens. But if builders could be banned for that I think it would shrink the id community even smaller, but at the same time I think its completely unfair of the titan to lose out on so much feed. Not sure exactly how to go about solving that problem.

[1337hamburger]

This is something that a lot of people are finding annoying, where people triple base or quad base early making it impossible to siege. As a noob titan in practice, I'm finding it annoying that after getting lucky and killing a mini early, people triple/quad base, and other people are finding this annoying too i.e. foss.

. . . what
If you are trying to become a better titan, trying to get new rules to make playing titan easy is not the way to handle it.

Also I would just like to put this out in the open: breaking 3-5 bases usually isn't that hard (if the builders inside the base aren't the few top level players that still play). Constantly I hear complaints about how op quad bases are, and that if one can get up it is insta gg for the titan, this just isn't even close to true. When a team of builders work together and organize into a packed base it will increase the early game dps and support potential of the base. Although builders all getting into one base can actually be a good thing, even though no one wants to think that. First I will state the obvious, when there are a lot of players in one base chances are that there will be at least one builder that is a low skill set, this will lead to this single builder nuke bouncing the majority of the team in the base, resulting in the base dying without a siege even being needed. Now I'm sure people will dismiss my last statement saying that it is all up to luck to get that one guy to bounce the base, and that in reality it won't happen much. . . but really it does happen nearly every game if you know how to play titan. Okay, moving on to the next simple point; when there are 4+ people in a base there is nowhere to build or lumber (leading to the builders becoming resource starved).

I guess I will address the "issue" of builder suicides during a siege. This would be a game ending rule change if it became bannable for builders to deny feed by suiciding; then the game just couldn't be played imo.

tl;dr
This is constantly brought up within in-game arguments, so I'm glad someone brought it here, but if these rules were created then island defense would be a bad time.

[Burn]

We don't need more unnecessary rules that increase the ban list and work load for game mods. Never had a problem with suicidng builders before.

-Burn

[ShadowZz]

Pretty sure everyone already knows my opinions on this.

Builder suicide - Shouldn't be bannable during a siege. This needs a different fix to be honest, been talked about in private before but with the current concept it doesn't work. However I'm an advocate of banning builders who leave because someone became a minion. It's salty and it ruins the game. Likewise people who intentionally go observer to avoid facing titans too.

Triple bases/Quad bases need a different fix. They don't need to be bannable. They need to be removed within the game itself, but that's not going to happen on Wc3 ID. Simple fact is that the playerbase can't handle major changes. A good chunk of like 30% of the players left because hotkeys got changed. Welcome to ID.

[Merex]

And yet ID still thrives with it's glowing inhabitants^

Editing: Now that I've actually thought about it, could it be possible to autoban people whom are still builders and not observers and such?

[Burn]

Auto-ban was removed from BGN015 mainly because Plus. would end games before 10mins. and get banned for leaving.

Auto-ban for builder leavers isn't good because it is unnecessary to force builders to stay in a game. As a titan it can be a little annoying, sure, but it just ups the challenge and forces me to siege early due to no feed, but that's okay because I don't care if I lose, and I love sieging.

As a builder, I don't care if my feeder team-mates leave the game.

Builders who leave to deny feed or a minion should be banned. For example, a builder is trapped in a seed with no way out, and leaves the game. Titan goes back to mound to get a replenish potion, and builder gets devoured by Neco. It's rage inducing. Whenever this happens, I make sure I win.

-Burn

[Lynx]

No, consider learning micromanagement

Off topic:
Fix to triple/quad bases:
Make titan harder so they aren't a necessity.

Fix to builder rage quits at first blood:
Make GP come sooner.

[ShadowZz]

@Burn I very much agree with the last part of your post. Especially about the seed leavers. I feel the "banning builders for leaving in general" falls too much under the opinion of whomever is titan in the game. Some don't mind, others do. Pretty sure everyone can agree on the seed bans though.

@Lynx Your trolling right?

Make titan harder = people won't quad base anymore because titans even weaker?
Builders rage quit = give them gold earlier that they shouldn't have anyway?

Lynx logic 101.

[Burn]

On topic: So, thread is pretty much all in favour of not banning out suiciding builders who want to deny their base.

Off topic:
Agreed on the nerf titan part.

Buffing gold penalty is a bit iffy though. Game is normally over by 30mins, and 30mins is a pretty good timer on when the game should end.

Prevent stalling past GP; end game and give the builders a free win at 40mins. like tree tag. Titans probably only win 1% of games past 40mins, and it will make games a lot more fun because you don't have to deal with as many staller titans.

-Burn

[Photon_man24]

Yey for repeating what has already been said so that I give a vote toward the dictatorship on the rules in ID

On Builder Suicide, if it's to deny a base the titan really has the choise to either feed off the base or take the kill. I think it's a very entertaining challenge from the titan side to focus on feeding off towers when the builder is trying to sui, and also from the builder side in trying to block the titan with your builder as much as possible. This is quite an enjoyable challenge in a siege imo.
If the builder leaves from a seed where it's trapped I agree that it's unfair that the titan be robbed of a minion. I know fossurious solves this by simply suiciding the builder in this situation.

On triple and quad bases, this is a dynamic I find very interesting. I've had a number of very close and enjoyable games in pubs with krazyyy, hash, etc making a team base. In pub games there are almost always some noob that's an easy kill or easy feed. And then facing a quad or triple base makes it a difficult, but not always impossible challenge. My experience has been that builders tend to team base much more when the game isn't going in their favor. If builders think they can hold with solo or double bases, they tend to. I see a similar thing with tweeks (-froff, -exp -gc) where builders often start votes for them, only after they've decided they'll win anyway. There are alot of things that builders might do to make it more even for a noob titan. So I think that because of the range of titan and builder skills in pubs, it's a bad idea to force builders into rules about double and triple basing. Good titans would stomp even harder. Bad titans would lose anyway. Middle skill titans might benefit though.

Off topic: @Burn I kinda like the idea of having the builders win at something like 40 minutes. But only if the builders have a standing base that the titan can't break at that time. I think it'd be awful being in a position where the builders escape the last base as it falls, and losing as titan because builders are too good at tree tag. Perhaps something like a 3x3 base flag could allow this. Buildable after 20 minutes and if it stands for 20 minutes then builders win.

[Burn]

Off topic:
Or give titan and minions maximum move speed and true sight after 40mins so they can chase the fuckers down, then end in 5mins.

Also, give him the ability to one hit builders with melee. That'd work. And make it a long research time to negate the one hit ability that titan obtains when 40mins. hits for supporters.

-Burn

[Stealer]

ontopic:
Yes, in a 10v1 game lets ban the 10 from working together. Great game design.

offtopic:
A flag would be a nice idea.

Buffing gp isn't that big a deal since gold isn't as good as it used to be.

pretty sure its easy to avoid false positives for banning leaver builders as long as neco doesn't screw up mmd (it's the map that flags everything, don't try that "it's ent's fault guys!!"). They'll be able to join games before the one they left ends but w/e; bans catch up to you eventually.

[Burn]

You can never ban something that is part of the game in a casual pub game, unless it's an obvious game-breaking glitch like demo sac glitch or something like that, or like I said before, denying a whole minion because you're trapped in a seed. A single minion can be game-changing, especially in the early game.

Neco can choose to balance the game by making suiciding as builder not feasible, but I'd never recommend banning it outright.

Flag is a terrific suggestion and I've said it in the past to Neco, who turned it down for idk what reasons.

It is pretty easy to avoid false positives, but the thing is that every change has to go through uakfb, and uakfb himself has to approve and code the bot related code. It's not necessary to put more players on the ban list for a dying game. Furthermore, leaver titans don't really ruin the game that much anyway, imo.

-Burn