Please remove 104 from auto-host, until it is actually ready.

[FollowingPath]

If the Titan breaks into a base in previous versions he could just choose not to kill the Builder and would get 100% of the feed. This only changes the case where the Builder is actually killed, which is deaths due to nukes etc. In that case it's up to the rest of the team to deny not the "random" as you put it.

I recall photon_man telling me that he showed you that it was possible for level 3 main with 2 minions to break a base full of super towers since they switched to neutral after the builder was nuked.

You can't tell me that you think this is balanced. If a titan is unable to break any bases, it means he's effectively lost the game and should only have 1 option left: nuking everyone. He shouldn't be able to nuke a baser and then be rewarded with the gold from an entire base.

Also, you can't efficiently deny a nuked builder's feed during a siege since titan will be able to walk right in.

[ShadowZz]

Then don't get nuked? It's really not that hard. What you're saying is that if the builder messes up then the titan should get no reward from it and should walk to the next base and stand around waiting for another builder to fuck up.

Yeah, because that makes much more sense.....

[FollowingPath]

I'm saying that if titan already lost by getting too far behind, 1 builder fucking up shouldn't doom the rest of them. That 1 builder used to be limited to new people who don't yet understand the idea behind destroying their own base. After all, why would they?
But now, that group of players fucking up has massively expanded to include pretty much everyone.

Then don't get nuked? It's really not that hard.

And don't die or feed any gold or exp either. It's really not that hard.

[ShadowZz]

@FollowingPath You have the same delusion as everyone else.

You understand it's 1v10 right? You 10 people are on the same team, you understand that right? You are supposed to work together as 10v1 but you CHOOSE not to. You could go make a 10 man base at the 2 min mark and a level 2 titan would NEVER break it but you CHOOSE not to. The same thing as always, builders think they are individual players and other builders actions shouldn't affect there game.

If titan makes one mistake whilst sieging his titan dies then the games over. If he makes one mistake microing a minion, the minion dies then he can't break the base anymore. If titan makes one mistake and misses the nuke than would of killed a builder then it eventually loses him the game. 1v10. But if a builder makes 1 mistake and now ends up feeding a base giving titan a chance in coming back into the game then the other builders on HIS TEAM should simply be non-accountable.

How do you not see that what you are saying is [insert bad words here] [literally blowing my mind] [not the first time I've lectured people on game balance]. But you will reply to this with some reason as to why 10 builders on the same team cannot be expected to work together and shouldn't be punished for their mistakes and we will be back at square one. Because as usual ID players are selfish. They only think about how it affects their game when a noob dies and how that person has now ruined their game. Instead of thinking about the fact that you are on the same team and you are just as responsible for that person feeding as they are.

[FollowingPath]

Since we're essentially discussing the same points on 2 seperate topics, I'm just going to post it here.
#1: I don't appreciate the insults.
#2 How can you actually keep telling yourself that you're right when, according to your very own words, everyone else shares the same point of view? Is it because the shared view goes against your own? The community knows best what the community wants to play. I don't understand how you can look past a viewpoint shared by so many people and convince yourself that everyone else is wrong.

[ShadowZz]

Because they are wrong. There's a reason why the majority of games don't have a public discussion board for changes that they actively reply in. Because a lot of changes that are made within games are hated by the community because they simply don't understand. People go to university and get degree in game design and development before they get put in charge of making those decisions. If the entire country thought that NASA should use a different rocket fuel for their rockets you still wouldn't disagree with the rocket scientist who has a freaking degree in the subject. But with gaming it's different because good gamers have the delusion that they can balance games and the simple truth is that they can't.

Dota 2 literally just did exactly this in their 2 previous patches. The one before last they didn't touch a hero which is by everyone's opinion completely broken, they literally did nothing to it and there's post dotted around with people complaining about it. But valve isn't going to respond because people simply won't get it. In the latest patch they also remove all pick from ranked leaving only random draft and captains mode and people have complained about it and everyone hates it and valve yet again are not going to tell you why because people will simply not understand. Back to previous point > But with gaming it's different because good gamers have the delusion that they can balance games and the simple truth is that they can't.

[Merex]

You understand it's 1v10 right? You 10 people are on the same team, you understand that right? You are supposed to work together as 10v1 but you CHOOSE not to. You could go make a 10 man base at the 2 min mark and a level 2 titan would NEVER break it but you CHOOSE not to. The same thing as always, builders think they are individual players and other builders actions shouldn't affect there game.

Please find me 1 replay where you see 10 players (builders) actually make 1 huge mega op base and end the game in 2 minute mark? I'll literally be waiting for you to.

Everything you're saying is going against how ID initially operates. Bases are made to house 1 builder. If one base is bigger then the other, then obviously it can house 2. That's it. Why do you think that is ShadowZz? Because if 10 people cram into a base and actually apply this non-existent teamwork then there's gonna be a cludder and it'll be more messy on the builders end then it will a level 2 titan. How are they gonna get lumber? They need a shelter and 150 food's worth of workers to be able to make this happen. Oh wait they make lumber bases.. Should they do that together too?

Your logic is flawed by misinterpretation of technicality vs reality. So do yourself a favor and see the reality of things.

If titan makes one mistake whilst sieging his titan dies then the games over. If he makes one mistake microing a minion, the minion dies then he can't break the base anymore. If titan makes one mistake and misses the nuke than would of killed a builder then it eventually loses him the game. 1v10. But if a builder makes 1 mistake and now ends up feeding a base giving titan a chance in coming back into the game then the other builders on HIS TEAM should simply be non-accountable.

>If the titan makes a mistake, obviously it's at his own fault
>If a builder's base gets broken, obviously it's at his own fault
I get it. It's a mistake, and mistakes happen.

How do you not see that what you are saying is [insert bad words here] [literally blowing my mind] [not the first time I've lectured people on game balance]. But you will reply to this with some reason as to why 10 builders on the same team cannot be expected to work together and shouldn't be punished for their mistakes and we will be back at square one. Because as usual ID players are selfish. They only think about how it affects their game when a noob dies and how that person has now ruined their game. Instead of thinking about the fact that you are on the same team and you are just as responsible for that person feeding as they are.

Maybe next time someone intent. feeds in your game, I'll have to ban you too.

Why?! Oh wait, you're accountable too.

[ShadowZz]

You wouldn't need space for 10 builders. The point is you could literally have a gnoll or any builder that can tower at the start of the game make his lumber base in the base and a mag with 1 tree for a pizzly wall it. The others could stand there and do nothing and it would be a 100% winrate for builders. Builders choose to not do this. That is a choice. I'm not saying this ever happens, I'm saying that builders can do it and it is perfectly possible.

The reality of things is that builders choose to solo base and double base when they are winning vs a bad/average titan but they choose to quad base when they are loosing. Builders are choosing to make the game harder and not quad base whilst they are winning but I guess that's a non issue too by your logic as even though builders choose not to do it then why is it not a problem? Builders in tentionally don't work together unless they have to and that is the number 1 problem with ID. People don't see being a builder as you are all together on the same team. They see it as individual players trying to win on their own or in a small group of 2-4 when there's 10 people on their team. If you play a game with sizable teams like LoL or Dota if 1 person on your team doesn't pull their weight then you simply lose the game because 1 person on your team was terrible. So everyone tries to work together and if someone if terrible you try to help them so you don't lose. ID tries to do the opposite. It rewards other players by letting them die so they stop feeding instead of forcing them to help the shit base to prevent the feed overall. That's what people don't get.

To elaborate on the mistakes speech:

People are seeing it the wrong way as expected because people just simply can't contemplate that the way ID was is retarded.

If a titan spends 5-10 mins attacking a base and eventually pulls off a nuke killing the owner of that base then what has the titan gained? He gained 10g for the kill and a minion.

What have the builders gained? The builders have had 5-10mins of un-interupted lumber time which has been pumped into making their bases stronger whilst not having to spend any wood on walls due to nobody being anywhere near them, some of them were probably golding whilst titan was sieging too. That one builders mistake has had 0 impact on their game and if anything they are all better off because of the afore mentioned things. Yet again something that people simply can't understand or simply act as if the builders gained nothing.

In the whole nuke kill scenario that was brought up everyone has simply focused on the builders not being punished for that 1 builders mistake and not one person has mentioned that titan should be rewarded for it. After all the previous statement shows that a minion and +10g is not a reward. That's just basic game balance that is a player messes up then the other side should be rewarded but yet again in the case of ID the "community" thinks a minion and +10g balances out all the free time those potential6+ builders have had which singularly equates to around 6 builders with 10mins free lumber each totalling something around the figure of 10000 wood x 6 = 60000 wood unpunished + gold gathered during that time + no repairs + safety from titan + map knowledge on where he is the whole time. The idea that I have to type this out to even get you to notice it is exactly my point with how players think they know how to balance because they simply play a game. 4 pages on this topic and a bunch of other topics and not one person has mentioned how much builders gain from a titan in a long siege or a titan that nukes a builder to death.

As for the bans. You don't bother banning people who intentionally leave the game to prevent feeding a minion whilst stuck in a seed so why would you be concerned with this?

[Merex]

So your logic is to have 8 other builders sit in a base do nothing while a gnoll and a mag win for them? Then it's not a game it's just a desperate act for the win. You honestly think ID was built for that type of repetitive win/loss desperation? That's ridiculous and people ''choose'' not to do that because they actually want to play the game, not be confined to your own ideal standard of ''teamwork'' which isn't even teamwork, it's just boring and ID would be dead if it lived by that.

Builders are meant to do their own thing. They have their own unique options between hybrid, basing and pure support. What exactly do you want to happen in ID? You want 10 players to work together to make job even harder for the titan? Your entire logic on this is basing off the mere fact that you view ID in a completely different way than everyone else and that's probably why sitting here and typing up these paragraphs are getting you absolutely no where. Why do you think no one agrees with your point? Because the natural flow of ID games consist of exactly how you described it in paragraph 2. They only team up when they're losing because with joint forces, they're stronger. If they're not losing, then sometimes they wanna be independent and have their own unique bases. So what? Why should builders be forced to work by your standard? There's a reason ID has more than 1 builder. There's a reason ID has more than 1 base. There's a reason why ID have a builders shop. There's a reason why supports exists. Let players play the way they want, if they make mistakes, of course it's on them. That's part of the gaming experience.

These long sieges are a waste of breath. You're arguing that a titan who spends his time sieging a lone base that he can't break is the result of builder superiority? Maybe that's why the titan should actually apply strategy and focus feed + minions rather then just jump into siege like that. What else are builders gonna do in their free time? Sit in a seed? Sit in a base? You're making the titan seem like a clueless innocent being when in reality I'm almost positive pubstompers have become a common disease upon the community. It's 10v1 for a reason ShadowZz. If a titan can't find his own progress, tough. What does any of this have to do with game balance? It's arguing 1 point to the other.

As for the bans, I don't bother banning people who leave the game because it's their right. If you want that to change, make a suggestion. Simple qq tactics, leaving has nothing to do with intentionally feeding. It's 2 different arguments right there. I'm concerned with it because you want people be accounted for someone else's actions like we're parents or a big bro. No. They do what they do, and they get penalized for it. Your argument on builder equality is already heavily flawed within itself.

[ShadowZz]

Read my first post in this topic: https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 49#p341749

It's a long read but seriously just read it.

I am completely against high skilled pub stompers and they 100% need to be nerfed. That post explains a lot about what should/needs to change and simply benefits everyone. It helps to balance games vs highly skilled titans whilst allowing titan to be more accessible without actually changing balance for low-average skilled titans. People get the wrong impression, I don't think that titan overall needs buffs. Titan needs to be easier to play and use for the average player which makes up the majority of the player base.

As for the whole 10 builders thing, I'm not saying that all 10 builders need to work together, what I am saying is that other builders should be punished for other builders mistakes. Like wise titan should be rewarded for them but before this version of 4.0.0 a titan was overall not rewarded for killing a builder at a base even though that is the goal of titan. Obviously I agree that things need to change to accommodate this but instead of talking about that people have simply cried over that now happening. In the other topic I hope you have read by now I posted suggestions to help balance the changes out.

Titans only get feed/exp through builders mistakes. If no builder made a mistake then the titan would be lvl 2 at the 20min mark. That's a fact. In a perfect game the builders would make 0 mistakes, denying every building and never feeding. That simply doesn't happen and I'm using it as an extreme example. Vs a good lobby a titan should never be able to nuke someones workers because they should always be walled off to stop nukes. A builder shouldn't die to tp at mound. Feed should not be randomly left around the map like RC's at mound vs good builders. But they do all of these things because builders take the game a lot less seriously than titans do. Increasing the skill cap for builders from "herp derp i made a lumber base" to "holy shit maybe i shouldnt just let him nuke my shit" is not a bad thing.

The other problem in all of this is that ID is not ranked. You have titan like Fossurious, Burn, Beekauzh playing vs average lobbys and stomping. As they should. These players should logically only play titan vs the best builders as they are some of the best titans playing the game. So having an argument over the fact that they pubstomp is seriously retarded. Do you honestly think the game would be "balanced" if the best titans in ID lost games to average players? If anything that would literally say that titan needed to be buffed.

But if we look at it in the other direction nobody seems to give a fuck. Beek is 11/0 with titan and is going on about how titan is broken and he wins games easy. Burn is 300/29 with builder. You are 59/13 with builder. Hash is 966/99 with builder yet he of all people is complaining that titan needs to be nerfed. What a fucking joke. By this logic Fullmelthash is saying that his 966 wins 99 losses with builder should be more like 1000 wins 50 something losses. Seems balanced man, it's such a great argument, I don't know why anybody didn't think to argue that losing 1 game in every 10 means that your team is underpowered and it should be more like 1/20. I mean hell that makes sense right? Like the fact I actually have to point this out to you is what makes me sit here and write huge post's because I'm literally reading a post by someone who only plays builder and loses 1/10 games complain that titan is overpowered. Like what the actual fuck?

[BeeKauzh]

@Shadowzz I'll say it again for the x time.
Stealer said it perfectly. All you need is an armor of fate to cake-walk every super bases. No skills required.
I guess this is what skill is. Buy the right item.
Tbh it's a miracle builders have over 25% winrate. Titans losing doesnt show that titan is hard, it simply shows that people buy the wrong item.

In a pub game, its not rare that builders only win condition is for titan to fk up.

[BeeKauzh]

@ShadowZz

tl;dr paragraph #1 titan isn't op, just needs to be ez
>pubstompers exist

tl;dr paragraph #2 titan gets no reward for killing builder
>10g and another minion. What more you do you want? Oh wait you already made it possible with the ridiculous builder neutralization.
^Refer to the above by beek if you think titan isn't already easy

tl;dr paragraph #3 titans pubstomp, they lose to average lobby, obv give them buff
LOL?

tl;dr paragraph #4 you pick 2 people in BTI and myself to state that builders are overpowered simply because of the experience gap?
So I went over to the id.rory site, found a rando pub and his w/l with builder was 3/6. Obv not a regular, just a player wanting to play ID right? Clearly builders are underpowered and need buff then if he loses more than he wins.

[ShadowZz]

When you can't win you simply don't read. This is why nobody bother's discussing it. Because talking it through is like bashing your head with a rock.

[Merex]

Sounds to me like you got upset.

[Lynx]

When you can't win you simply don't read. This is why nobody bother's discussing it. Because talking it through is like bashing your head with a rock.

Ever considered that you are the rock in this scenario?

Or let's see it this way, your arguments are so flawed we can't possibly change our opinion, making you believe we are the rock.