Another of those lod ban suggestion threads: sleight of fist + perma invis

[Sylvanas]

It's this time again.

I have recently saw the combination of those 2 skills in action and after my last game, which I'll link to below, I think it should be banned, not just because it's imbalanced, as many working-as-intended lod builds are, but because it's imbalanced and glitched.

In lod, sleight of fist is used exclusively on 1 hitter builds, which are some of the strongest setups if you happen to have a few key skills. Lod's perma invis, as I believe mods are now aware, makes you visible every time you use a skill, or activate/use an item. Unfortunately, that doesn't work at all with sleight of fist. It is the only such skill to my knowledge and since sleight of fist based one hitters use that spell exclusively for killing (often just once, because you know, one hitters...), it makes an already top tier build much stronger for no intended reason.

Even if you survive the first hit, you can hardly tell where it was used from, since it has no discernible "traveling" animation and has very long reach when aimed at the tip of the aoe. Really, it's arguably the most abusable spell to cast while invis I can think of. It has no realistic counter since it pretty much always catches you by surprise, is effective against anybody and is nearly impossible to kill.

The game. Keep in mind Sven should normally supposed to become visible each time he uses sleight of fist. Think of how much it helped him not to, and how unnecessary it was considering how strong his hero already was.

[BiLyA]

Ban all invis skills wtf i search and can no find enemy, how win? Omggggh imbaaaaaa!!!!!!!1!11!1!!!!!
Ban blink too, enemy blink and kill me before i react, very annoying

[aRt)Y]

Wards, gem, aoe scouting?

[Sylvanas]

Ban all invis skills wtf i search and can no find enemy, how win? Omggggh imbaaaaaa!!!!!!!1!11!1!!!!!
Ban blink too, enemy blink and kill me before i react, very annoying

Blink and invis in general work as intended, thanks for input.

Wards, gem, aoe scouting?

A hero that's always invis can be detected and their hp can hit 0. That's besides the point. You're banning perma invis glitching now, this one is basically an inbuilt perma invis glitch that has perfect synergy to one of the best lod builds and comes with no sacrifice (you can farm all you want, you stay invis even with a normally functioning perma invis).

I remember you've banned flame guard and rearm. I've never tried it (since it's banned), but apparently you can stack flame guard endlessly for aoe dps and magic damage block and teleport on people to kill them with that. With a 35 seconds duration on flame guard and perfect timing, you should be able to teleport yourself with a 2100 dps 400 aoe shield that also protects you from the first 17500 magic damage received (a little less considering the tping time), before it starts losing a charge every second. One could use blade mail or high physical damage (possibly from outside the limited 400 aoe) to kill him or bkb to defend themselves from the shield's damage. Yet it's been banned.

It's one thing to type out how something should be fought against, executing it is another. It's technically killable, it's just stupidly strong and heavily relies on a glitch. This applies to both things, since it's the same situation really. Those builds are impossible to use without exploiting a glitch and that's supposed to be banned. Your rules.

[aRt)Y]

We all know from DotA that fist is supposed to have a limit. It doesn't in LoD and that's the glitch.
A spell which makes you invis when you use another spell doesn't sound like a glitch tho. You are combining two spells to create something powerful - well, welcome to LoD.

Tell me with a yes or no: Is the skill supposed to make you invis when you use another spell?

[Sylvanas]

We all know from DotA that fist is supposed to have a limit. It doesn't in LoD and that's the glitch.
A spell which makes you invis when you use another spell doesn't sound like a glitch tho. You are combining two spells to create something powerful - well, welcome to LoD.

Tell me with a yes or no: Is the skill supposed to make you invis when you use another spell?

YES! That's the whole point! They specifically made lod's perma invis reveal you when you when using EVERY spell, EVERY item and EVERY consumable for balance purposes (in dota you can do all that and stay invis because it's a spell that's restricted to sa, who is pretty much forced to rely on attacking and breaking invis to kill).

Sleight of fist is the ONLY exception I know about, because it IS glitched! Use fireblast while under perma invis? Revealed. Use the charges on a magic stick while perma invis? Revealed. Blink? Revealed. Sleight of fist? No problem, you just did 5k physical damage in an aoe and weren't revealed.

Want to make a game right now? I'll just show you.

[aRt)Y]

IIRC, the LoD devs took a break? Can we just ban this hero already as he glitches more than functions? Or is this just a one time thing, too?

[Sylvanas]

IIRC, the LoD devs took a break? Can we just ban this hero already as he glitches more than functions? Or is this just a one time thing, too?

Well, they are 2 completely unrelated glitches which just happen to use ember skills. Sleight of fist is the core skills of certain builds, it's just adding perma invis into the mix that shouldn't be allowed because you'll then be abusing a major glitch all game long whether intended or not.

Picking your skills and items for high damage and using sleight of fist to deal that damage in an aoe goes along the "spirit" of lod, adding perma to stay invis while casting it is just exploiting a glitch at everyone else's expense.

[aRt)Y]

Thanks for your input so far.

We will be discussing the LoD matter in a bigger picture among staff. Until then, I will lock the topic.

You will be tagged once the discussion continues.

[aRt)Y]

Topic will be processed on Sunday with our final decision.

[aRt)Y]

@Sylvanas The staff pretty much agrees on the fact that we can not continue the way it currently is.

Our proposal is to change back to a stable LoD map (or the current one, depending where are fewer glitches) and to create a list of forbidden spell combinations and glitches.

It reduces the administrative effort and creates clear rules for the players.

I would like your input on that and, if you are willing, your assistance, too.

[Sylvanas]

@Sylvanas The staff pretty much agrees on the fact that we can not continue the way it currently is.

Our proposal is to change back to a stable LoD map (or the current one, depending where are fewer glitches) and to create a list of forbidden spell combinations and glitches.

It reduces the administrative effort and creates clear rules for the players.

I would like your input on that and, if you are willing, your assistance, too.

Certainly. Lod has always had a few glitches with every version, latest one not being any worse than the ones before it, but I don't think it's as bad as you seem to think it is. The ones I've mentioned lately (perma invis glitching and sleight of fist+perma invis) are probably the most disruptive and commonly used right now that the mod team didn't seem to be aware of. Mana break from antimage is also glitched in the current version, doing double the normal effect (mana loss and damage) at every level, but people mostly seem to view it as an unplanned buff that doesn't really cause too much trouble, because the regular mana break was already disabled for ranged images, which is still true. Whether anything should be done about it is up to you, any build that uses melee images and mana break can easily be tweaked into a ranged one with diffusal that's nearly as good, but encouraging people to go melee with the double mana break might not be a bad thing. Add to that rearm+flame guard and that's most of it. Probably not much more glitchy than many other hosted maps.

As for other, rarer glitches, you can consult me to ask whether or not things are working as intended if necessary. I don't know about all the glitches that can be done, but I can always tell when one is being used.

[warlord1994]

lol the new version have less gltcih than the old ... wtf.
first and perm invis have been around for forever stop crying sylva.
u either switch lod version or deal with it.
banning rearm flame guard is enough, hero ban is terrific stupid and destroy lod community.
just some of my input, welcome all.
u see lod community in ent is better than ever coz u added -bo in the mode
bo= ballance OFF.
fn=fast neutral.
if u know lod good enough, there are plenty of imba builds and strategy to counters each others, a bit skill too.
when the hell ent have a inhouse lod bot.
1k2++ elo, ye u can set more rules here for veteran players.
plzzz let the normal lod bot alone.
too many smutfs players detroying the games.
good players get bored fake accounts and kill games.
I can stand having 4 noobs on my team and play against a 1-2 smutf players and lose 20 elo any longer.
need a tournaments as well.....

and to create a list of forbidden spell combinations and glitches.

AGREE, U can't ban people for an unknown new glitch. only after its has been discover and added to the list, hating to be banned to discover a bugs every new version of lod, its the games best feature. Thank great idea.

[Sylvanas]

lol the new version have less gltcih than the old ... wtf.
first and perm invis have been around for forever stop crying sylva.
u either switch lod version or deal with it.
banning rearm flame guard is enough, hero ban is terrific stupid and destroy lod community.
just some of my input, welcome all.
u see lod community in ent is better than ever coz u added -bo in the mode
bo= ballance OFF.
fn=fast neutral.
if u know lod good enough, there are plenty of imba builds and strategy to counters each others, a bit skill too.
when the hell ent have a inhouse lod bot.
1k2++ elo, ye u can set more rules here for veteran players.
plzzz let the normal lod bot alone.
too many smutfs players detroying the games.
good players get bored fake accounts and kill games.
I can stand having 4 noobs on my team and play against a 1-2 smutf players and lose 20 elo any longer.
need a tournaments as well.....

and to create a list of forbidden spell combinations and glitches.

AGREE, U can't ban people for an unknown new glitch. only after its has been discover and added to the list, hating to be banned to discover a bugs every new version of lod, its the games best feature. Thank great idea.

Perma invis was first a ultimate, then a regular skill, then a nerfed ultimate for balance purposes. Perma invis is fine, glitching perma invis intentionally to have it keep the pre-nerf effects is not fine.

[Jiminy_Cricket]

SoF is op because it's so hard to counter.

The range on it is huge.
You dont get revealed if you use it with perm invis.
Blade mail does not fucking deflect it.
It is easily turned into one hit and the range is huge.
You can sit way away from the enemy and one hit them while they cant reach you cause of the op range.

It needs to be nerfed just like enchant totem combined with germinate and jinada was. But that point is moot since the map makers are on strike or some shit.

Suggestion would be to ban germinate + jinada + SoF. You can pick two out of the three but not all three together.

I like the idea of having a small list of banned combos until they get properly nerfed. I've seen this work well on Ranked Gaming. List is usually about 5 combos long and if someone wants to cheat and rape everyone with that super op combo they can be banned for a couple of days. This is the best solution I can think of. Lod is a sweet game but is ruined cause of OP draft luck. Game should be more about game play and strategy rather than luck.