Absolutely loving the new DotA map.

[liuser]

Dota 2 doesnt prevent stacking. You haven't played Dota2 if you think the matchmaking system is anything to write home about.

Secondly, these changes aren't dramatic nor are they unnecessary. The changes in gold accumulation actually space out the game properly and ensure that the games are being played correctly. Supports are supposed to support. Carries are supposed to carry.

[liuser]

can we PLEASE move past EM modes where you can just afk farm?

Wait. You think map changes can force bad, passive players who have borderline learning disabilities into playing better/differently? That's hilarious.

The only thing non-EM does is make baddies an even bigger feed cancer to their teammates. Which, of course, encourages stacking to avoid them. And one-sided games aren't fun. Nor is taking the chance against the stack and sitting there because none of the idiots want to ff, but you can't leave or you're autobanned. Sounds like fun, bro.

You live in some kind of fantasy world where AP is a good for pubs.

And yet for some reason, Dota2 pubs seem to be chugging along just fine. Pubs and all.

[bansheex]

Dota 2 doesnt prevent stacking. You haven't played Dota2 if you think the matchmaking system is anything to write home about.

To the extent that happens here? Yes it does. I see plenty of games here where the elo gain is 2 or less, and the other team has zero chance because they have no smurfs, just legit baddies without a prayer.

Secondly, these changes aren't dramatic nor are they unnecessary. The changes in gold accumulation actually space out the game properly and ensure that the games are being played correctly. Supports are supposed to support. Carries are supposed to carry.

I see no such thing. I see the same situations as before simply playing out longer due to siege power (the actual thing that ends games) taking longer to accumulate by virtue of less gold in the game. Once again, behavior doesn't change because you want it to or think it makes more sense. The lack of free gold, plain and simple, has one effect. That effect is to buff the rewards of getting tower and hero kills. Since bad players do that poorly, their ability to stay useful through avoidance gets trashed. And if you were to take free gold away completely, the team with the most skill would almost always win and you'd almost never see any comebacks or upsets. Games would snowball early and become permafeed fests as the gold/exp disparity kept ballooning.

[Slomosapien]

None of those changes were as dramatic as halving the amount of free gold to literally thousands of noobs, baddies, and laggers.

That gold is only relevant at the start though, right? Like, by 20 minutes, you should have a mid-level item or two and be able to kill creeps at a fast enough rate to make the auto-gold mostly irrelevant.

[liuser]

Dota 2 doesnt prevent stacking. You haven't played Dota2 if you think the matchmaking system is anything to write home about.

To the extent that happens here? Yes it does. I see plenty of games here where the elo gain is 2 or less, and the other team has zero chance because they have no smurfs, just legit baddies without a prayer.

Secondly, these changes aren't dramatic nor are they unnecessary. The changes in gold accumulation actually space out the game properly and ensure that the games are being played correctly. Supports are supposed to support. Carries are supposed to carry.

I see no such thing. I see the same situations as before simply playing out longer due to siege power (the actual thing that ends games) taking longer to accumulate by virtue of less gold in the game. Once again, behavior doesn't change because you want it to or think it makes more sense. The lack of free gold, plain and simple, has one effect. That effect is to buff the rewards of getting tower and hero kills. Since bad players do that poorly, their ability to stay useful through avoidance gets trashed. And if you were to take free gold away completely, the team with the most skill would almost always win and you'd almost never see any comebacks or upsets. Games would snowball early and become permafeed fests as the gold/exp disparity kept ballooning.

So we should just cater to bad players then? Might as well turn this into a free for all and make an APEEM (All Pick Extremely Easy Mode) for the noobs then. The pacing of the new patch is dependent on the gold gain within the game.

If you're really going to stack on ENT of all things, you've honestly got larger problems with your ego and your life for these patch changes to matter.

[aRt)Y]

Well, this pointless arguing is getting us nowhere.
@art)y , could you perhaps have 2 bots hosting? One will host the normal (older) map of Dota, and the second bot will host the newer, more frequent version of Dota.
This way you can also see which one is getting used more and perhaps maybe even both can stay.

We are against splitting the community due to the already low quantity.

[Slomosapien]

We are against splitting the community due to the already low quantity.

Are there any other options or did you just put an end the discussion?

[aRt)Y]

We are against splitting the community due to the already low quantity.

Are there any other options or did you just put an end the discussion?

Well, if there are options which do not result in splitting the community, you are free to suggest them. :)

[Slomosapien]

Well, if there are options which do not result in splitting the community, you are free to suggest them.

Hosting one of each map isn't splitting the community, it's offering choice. If the choice is to split, like if there's an even number who migrate to each, the that's what the community wants. I do appreciate the effort on ENT's part to maintain unity, but it's not the only way. Plus, even based on what the people opposing v6.85 have said, there is already a split in the community; between skilled players and the ones who are dependant on the free gold from EM.

Games were still filling easily when it was 6.85, so there's plenty who are interesting in playing it, even if they don't post on the forum.

Having one of each would show, in an objective way, which map the community wants (maybe they want both! more than a few have asked for it).
I think that's a better way than basing choices off one poll held for less than a week.

You could run APEM as v6.83 since apem is friendlier to the newer players. AR as v6.85. No extra space on the bots (if that's relevant) and both groups get to experience what they want. Everybody wins.

[SeriouslyStrange]

I have a suggestion that may or may not work. I've seen in other posts that the Dota Apem bot for the European players are filling very slowly because most of them come to the us/ca bot either way. How about changing that bot altogether to the new map?

[Suck_It69]

@Slomosapien

I disagree to put AR on new map, since noobs can't play most heroes, if they random some IO/chen/SD they will just leave..
AP would be for them, can pick bara/riki/sniper.

I have played AREM in ENT more years than i can imagine and encountered some "beginners" jump from ap to ar and if they get bad hero they'll just leave at start and go back to ap.

[Burnt]

@Slomosapien

I disagree to put AR on new map, since noobs can't play most heroes, if they random some IO/chen/SD they will just leave..
AP would be for them, can pick bara/riki/sniper.

I have played AREM in ENT more years than i can imagine and encountered some "beginners" jump from ap to ar and if they get bad hero they'll just leave at start and go back to ap.

you can vote to change mode - so if you have apem in old map and ar in new map, essentially you have both modes in each map

[greenmtn]

The 6.85k map was more fun than 6.83/6.84 simply because it has new items, new strategies, and required more teamfights/ganks to win.

[Suck_It69]

@burnt

I doubt it, if im forced to play apem and i have to vote for arem, i doubt that everyone wants it like 10 outta 4 wants arem, and yet we can't have it cause others won't want it. Also i don't want to be forced to play AR new map.
In new map theres nothing to vote, gold gain is the same.

[Burnt]

oh well i think the only way is to bring 1 million more players here so we can have ap, ar, apem, arem, cm, sd, rd, wtf, etc all hosted