bring back 50% minimum value

[TinSoldier]

habibi no point to have lumber if u cant kill them before 15;; u auto die 14

[Diablo_]

This would be a bad rule and no real solution to a barely existing problem.

[TinSoldier]

with all due respect diablo and mick you guys are barely active during the season to see how the meta has devolved to this... and i wouldn't call it a barely existing problem if 14 people are already in favour of it.

[SLSGuennter]

This would be a bad rule and no real solution to a barely existing problem.

Last 5 games i played there was somebody with less then 1k val in arena
Hug had lod + lobster, and built 1 lod, rest lobster, then sell all but lod and goes for 400-500 val for lvl 10. Like rly ... LoD is a strong unit, but yet its better to suicide, if you have holder + archer anyway. NN to try building with LoD.

Its not a "barely existing problem" it just happens in more then 80% of 4s ... People (myself aswell, no offense against others ) start to suicide before lvl 5 starts, just cuz they got archer or immo. No matter what towers they have

[matdas]

the hole point of getting vouched is to see how good you can be with bad towers, yet when you actually play the league, you get bad towers, you just suicide instead of actually playing the bad towers. pointless to even show the replays of playing with bad towers.

[dweiler]

the hole point of getting vouched is to see how good you can be with bad towers, yet when you actually play the league, you get bad towers, you just suicide instead of actually playing the bad towers. pointless to even show the replays of playing with bad towers.

This is kind of a "problem" of the game though. It is better to have 2 strong players and 2 who feed, than 4 being average. It is part of knowing the game that you don't 'kill your team' by staying low/normal on lumber and be a bad holder instead of pushing and making yourself useful by sending more. I would say it is more pro to make the choice of pushing than desperately clinging on to your bad roll to not leak.

[matdas]

the hole point of getting vouched is to see how good you can be with bad towers, yet when you actually play the league, you get bad towers, you just suicide instead of actually playing the bad towers. pointless to even show the replays of playing with bad towers.

This is kind of a "problem" of the game though. It is better to have 2 strong players and 2 who feed, than 4 being average. It is part of knowing the game that you don't 'kill your team' by staying low/normal on lumber and be a bad holder instead of pushing and making yourself useful by sending more. I would say it is more pro to make the choice of pushing than desperately clinging on to your bad roll to not leak.

On phone so bare with me for typos and wall of text.

Change the requirements to show good decision making instead of holding with bad towers then. What is the point of have a replay with bad towers then? What you are staging contradicts the hole recruitment practice.

In the longrun the better player will win with their knowledge of building. That is what I want to say but it 100% false these days with suiciders such as mentioned in this topic.

I disagree with the statement that its better to have 2 strong players and 2 leakers. That is the wrong attitude for the game. It rewards the bad players for playing bad. This concept needs to be removed from the league. Leaking all game is bad.

Forgot where it was mention but someone mentioned leaking 60+ on 7 and 60+ on 8 with no holder on either level (one player goes to king and kills to get less than 60 is gine imo) should be a forfeit for the leakers.

I just dont believe in giving playrrs woth bad rolls the suicide option. If they are good thrn they shudnt be leaking insanely like a noob.

Build or dont play.

[matdas]

On phone so can't edit and scroll down.

This is merely my opinion not a suggestion. Not going to bother arguing cus I've done that in the past and nothing gets moving on this type of issue anyways. Majority of those who use this start will denounce the intended change and it won't go through. Or if it does they will try to change it back and succeed.

I want to see people get better at building. Not better at leaking.

[matdas]

I see so many typos I want to cry ((. If am mod can edit the post and fix the typos for readability I won't mind

[FQ-CoM]

How is this not a major problem? I think only 2 games that I've played this season ended on a different level than 15. Also I like to obs a lot of games and well yeah I'd easily say that 80% of the games is a 15 game, probably even more...

People are looking to suicide and clog win on 15 with 1 or 2 really strong holders likea archer/ygg + adds, that still hold 14. Roll immo and save heal pre 10. Steal a heal from enemys and force a 15 game, that no matter what you do you won't hold a 1-2x ~2.6k and 2-3x ~ 3.6-4k+ sends. Even if you try to hold you still often end up losing because of 60+ centaurs are blocking the demons, locks, behes, inf, locks to attack the king.

Also as @matdas wrote this is where you show you can play bad towers and can recover, though this has completely FAILED. Sometimes you can't recover no matter what but I've seen cases where people had less than 300 value on 10, even one guy with only a egg sack for arena. I know it's bad to have dead value and low pus. Though is this how we really want to play the game, does anyone believe it's fun, it's just anger, complaints and a lot of bullshit, but I guess st8 king clog 15 will be new meta and how to reach that #1? (No hard feelings to you avada ) but I really thought people would leave this in my opinion childish play style behind but nah...

[Dong]

Just make a rule about not Selling units/towers to leak or go total suicide.

There is a big difference between having bad units, and a bad start, and just push some more than usual, and have low value ( gives enemy nice advantage early game )

And have a normal game, and then on round 11 or so, choose to sell units to push more and start leaking.

.1 is bad luck/plays/units

2. is an active option do to so..

Dong-

[dweiler]

I agree with Dong. When I see this suggestion I just see examples like this in my head: what if you roll gateguards as best units (happens to me sometimes). With this rule we force you to stay low. To be 800 value on 9 with gates, you probably have to be 7/1 or 7/2. That's just pure TK for your team, being low lumber with totally useless value. So what if you push then and with some luck on arena you will be 7/6 or 7/7, but your lane is completely dead, how is that 'overpowered'? There is no reason to ban this, all you do is making people with TK rolls TK their team even harder.

I don't think arguments like '2 suiciders and ea still holds 14' are really legitimate to ban suiciding. Elite Archers have always been good 14, and if others push because you trust a holder, that is pretty much how this game is designed. If you have someone good for a round, you try to make the game in such a way that you exploit your advantages.

I do agree that selling towers in an excessive way to push so hard is something that has the potential to kill a lot of fun in 4v4, I could see a rule like Ace and Pew suggested to not have lower value than your previous round to be an option for the future. That way leaves only room for leaking how it has always been, suiciding with all the disadvantage (like the gateguard example), or standard leaking like it was.

[SLSGuennter]

I agree with Dong. When I see this suggestion I just see examples like this in my head: what if you roll gateguards as best units (happens to me sometimes). With this rule we force you to stay low. To be 800 value on 9 with gates, you probably have to be 7/1 or 7/2. That's just pure TK for your team, being low lumber with totally useless value. So what if you push then and with some luck on arena you will be 7/6 or 7/7, but your lane is completely dead, how is that 'overpowered'? There is no reason to ban this, all you do is making people with TK rolls TK their team even harder.

Well ... its been done with all kind of rolls ^^
People build 2 nm lvl 3, and then nothing till arena, or just go for the 440val mort, then nothing till arena ... this rolls arent bad, and it doesnt rly matter what roll you got, if there is an archer and an holder in your team, 1 guy should go fullsuicide after lvl 3/4 (and in most cases 1 guy does it). Seems very weird to me tbh.
And it definetly doesnt show your skill to make "pro decision instead of tk your team with desperatly trying to hold" ... i just shows, that you know how to exploit the -gg mode ^^

[matdas]

I agree with Dong. When I see this suggestion I just see examples like this in my head: what if you roll gateguards as best units (happens to me sometimes). With this rule we force you to stay low. To be 800 value on 9 with gates, you probably have to be 7/1 or 7/2. That's just pure TK for your team, being low lumber with totally useless value. So what if you push then and with some luck on arena you will be 7/6 or 7/7, but your lane is completely dead, how is that 'overpowered'? There is no reason to ban this, all you do is making people with TK rolls TK their team even harder.

Well ... its been done with all kind of rolls ^^
People build 2 nm lvl 3, and then nothing till arena, or just go for the 440val mort, then nothing till arena ... this rolls arent bad, and it doesnt rly matter what roll you got, if there is an archer and an holder in your team, 1 guy should go fullsuicide after lvl 3/4 (and in most cases 1 guy does it). Seems very weird to me tbh.
And it definetly doesnt show your skill to make "pro decision instead of tk your team with desperatly trying to hold" ... i just shows, that you know how to exploit the -gg mode ^^

This^^

Bad rolls are one thing. But to completely ignore your lane is another. As i stated before, why should people bother putting replays with bad towers if the league will not bother using those towers to play? The hole concept that you claim that it is pro'er to suicide is hypocritical. If you can't push, you can't push. That's how the game is sometimes. This suicide stuff to be clearly dead for 5 waves is nothing but pure bs if you have immolate and one strong holder.

To be 800 value on 9 with gates, you probably have to be 7/1 or 7/2. That's just pure TK for your team, being low lumber with totally useless value. So what if you push then and with some luck on arena you will be 7/6 or 7/7, but your lane is completely dead, how is that 'overpowered'? There is no reason to ban this, all you do is making people with TK rolls TK their team even harder.

This is just one extreme example. Which happens in less than 10% of the games gateguard is your best unit. At this point you probably rr'd your free roll and have the 50g rr. Better off using it. Or, like the vouch request says, Show off your skills with bad towers instead. Build those not so great towers. This is the "Legion In House League" meant for pros. Not the "Legion in house Leakers" which really needs to change. This rule will increase the skill level of the league by having players experiment with not so good towers

I do agree that selling towers in an excessive way to push so hard is something that has the potential to kill a lot of fun in 4v4, I could see a rule like Ace and Pew suggested to not have lower value than your previous round to be an option for the future. That way leaves only room for leaking how it has always been, suiciding with all the disadvantage (like the gateguard example), or standard leaking like it was.

In regards to the bold. That is what the problem mostly is. People selling towers and/or not building their towers that are meant to hold levels. Like someone said about LOD and crabs. Lod's great tower, but to just have the crabs and sell the crabs for income? This is a problem.

Yes, i agree with what pew and ace (hoping it was them, since you named them)suggested in that you cannot have less value than your previous level. It will prevent the lameness of selling all your towers and just plain pushing.

But the other problem is the plain dead lane of not building your lane. Yes you build 440 for engines. But to keep that until arena is wrong.You should be building to hold post game. Something needs to be changed for this. Which i agree that 50% value rule would minimize this but changing it to "If you leak 2 waves in a row, you must maintain a 50% minimum of recommended value until you hold 2 consecutive waves again"

[Krayyzie]

Some simple solutions

1: Not allowed to do delays on the level you send (which means, if other team sends also, you wont win by simply delaying ur lane,which happens quite often)
2: Do not allow more than X ammount of king upgrades pre level 8 or 10 (Means people actually are forced to hold, or else they die)
3: Do not allow a team to leak 50+ units to mid on any level without enemy sends, must forfeit if it happens.
and so on...

Quite sure there are alot of different kinds to attack this problem.


About the discussion about bad rolls, that is a luck factor in game, you cannot allow people to bend rules or play different because they got bad rolls, for example as the discussion used to be about lvl 5 delay, "if you have 4 bad lanes for lvl 5, it is okay to mass leak and delay, if you got good units its not", same rules no matter what rolls.