Allowing observers

[dweiler]

The other day someone asked me this simple question: "Why do we actually allow obs in LIHL? Isn't it really easy to ghost?" and I couldn't give them a good answer. I asked iightfyre (one of the mods at the start of this league when obs was introduced) and he told me the only reason obs were allowed was to give potential vouches an opportunity to watch an LIHL game in progress (something which I don't think is necessary anymore). After that, existing members started to join as obs, and the mod team decided to 'tolerate' them if all people agreed on it. Nowadays, observers are common practice, never questioned and it has turned mostly into 'if you miss out a sign, you can obs to make the time you have to wait a bit more bearable'. But after thinking about it, I feel like observers should actually not be allowed. Observers don't add anything to the league, except for a chance of ghosting which is literally untraceable (through wispers, skype, mumble, etc). I feel like we put all of our efforts for fairplay in jeopardy. We do SS-tests, but we allow the easiest way to cheat in games in pure 'trust'. I'm sure this trust is abused sometimes, even though I don't have specific players in mind.

Therefore, I propose to stop allowing observers in the LIHL. If you miss out, just wait in channel. If you want to see LIHL games, you can watch replays. I opened a poll, comments are also very welcome

[Lord-Miles]

Yeah i am totally agree with you here mate , no observers into lihl games.

[FadingSuns]

I think that obvs are perfect. Many times someone signed does not appear and we can swap a obvs in and start the game, this will be more hard if obvs are not allowed since you cant join a game where you are not signed. This will cause a lot of delay to start certain games.

Also, it can be the case that, after signing, when you are still in lobby, something happens and u ask obvs to take ur spot.

I really trust everyone in league about this issue, and i think that this change will derive in more negative things than positive.

In my case, i have even recieve lessons after game, as for example having 1007 obvs a game and after the game he says "u should have don this or that". IDK i dont see any advantage on dissable this. Plz just dont...

[dweiler]

I think that obvs are perfect. Many times someone signed does not appear and we can swap a obvs in and start the game, this will be more hard if obvs are not allowed since you cant join a game where you are not signed. This will cause a lot of delay to start certain games.

Also, it can be the case that, after signing, when you are still in lobby, something happens and u ask obvs to take ur spot.

I really trust everyone in league about this issue, and i think that this change will derive in more negative things than positive.

In my case, i have even recieve lessons after game, as for example having 1007 obvs a game and after the game he says "u should have don this or that". IDK i dont see any advantage on dissable this. Plz just dont...

For those issues, we can of course allow people to join obs spot in lobby, but bot autokicks spot 11 + 12 when game starts. I don't want to eliminate the possibility of swapping, et cetera, just that some people join and have the possibility to see both teams and ghost when there is actually no reason anyone should be able to.

[FadingSuns]

Well if you do that @mick then then i can feel more comfortable if the outcome is a "no".

EDIT: maybe you should allow mods to stay on obvs spot after game started, i dont see a reason for untrust our mods

[SLSGuennter]

Also, if no obs, we can finaly start using komodo

[Jamo]

Also, if no obs, we can finaly start using komodo

Haha, hell yea. I just recently had 2 games where I rolled nothing but shit and Komodo. And then with obs, you cannot use your only way to survive this game, totally annoying. On the other hand, I also had some experiences like Ace, 1007 often tells ppl what might have been better afterwards, kinda nice! Also a good way to observe trials etc. I dunno, hard decision, but I think I would trust people on this one to not ghost and rather keep the obs. Although, I never obs, cause I think its super boring

[Kreutertee]

For those issues, we can of course allow people to join obs spot in lobby, but bot autokicks spot 11 + 12 when game starts. I don't want to eliminate the possibility of swapping, et cetera, just that some people join and have the possibility to see both teams and ghost when there is actually no reason anyone should be able to.

It's a tough call. At first I never observed coz I thought it was boring, but then again as some others pointed out already, you can learn a thing or two watching other people. And I did that quite a bit lately. For me this is more fun than watching replays, where you cant even interact with allies on bnet.

On the other hand, and this was actually the first thing I thought of as well, was the use of Komodo. It's really sad this unit is basically rip.

Overall I'd still go with denying obs, as it's also a chance to have more games, if people don't idle in obs, but are "forced" to idle in the channel.

If there is a chance to distinguish trial vouches from approved vouches I'd introduce a rule going like:

Code: Select all

 IF player IS trial vouched OR IF player IS NOT vouched
    THEN hold player on !start
 ELSE
    kick player on start!


Let trials and potantial applicants observe, but kick fully vouched players.

Cheers

[Nore]

Imo, in a league like this, where we have a small player pool, trust should be the main thing we can rely on. If we make it so that there are no obs anymore for normal vouches, that trust will have been broken. That basically is assuming people ghost by doing so, and sends the wrong message. I voted no because this should be an open league; if people want to obs and others are cool with it who signed, there should be no issue.

Keep the same rules; if you suspect ghosting or just don't want obs, ask to close both obs spot for that particular game.. but don't deny people something so basic in a league where we lose stuff all the time already(bots, players, ect..) We should not become regulators, but rather keep the league atmosphere positive. This is not a healthy step forward to me.

[magicpotatoes]

Imo, in a league like this, where we have a small player pool, trust should be the main thing we can rely on. If we make it so that there are no obs anymore for normal vouches, that trust will have been broken. That basically is assuming people ghost by doing so, and sends the wrong message. I voted no because this should be an open league; if people want to obs and others are cool with it who signed, there should be no issue.

Keep the same rules; if you suspect ghosting or just don't want obs, ask to close both obs spot for that particular game.. but don't deny people something so basic in a league where we lose stuff all the time already(bots, players, ect..) We should not become regulators, but rather keep the league atmosphere positive. This is not a healthy step forward to me.

100% agree

[dweiler]

So we should let a potential huge abuse factor exist because it is not nice to think people can abuse it? This seems silly.

Let's just face it, having observers in game is a free card to cheating on the game. Ghosting there is 100% untrackable. I don't distrust anyone, but I am sure people will abuse this. We have had 10+ maphackers in this league, why should we have only saints in observers?

It is like a leak in our defence to fairplay, and you are saying we should not fix this leak, because it is not nice to think people would abuse the leak. Let's just close the leak? It's easy, no observer and there is no need to all have a huge faith in the superior morals of our players. The advantages of having observers aren't that big, they only lie with the observer (who likes to obs) and I don't think pleasing observers is the main target of LIHL, assuring fairplay is.

[FQ-CoM]

I know this is a call made from the mods but since I joined the league I can on hand tell that I observed more games than I actually played because of obvious reasons. I hate to play when I'm 100% sure I can not focus on the game, ex. Eating, studying, knowing that I might need to leave, and so on. I see it as another way to communicate with people and I feel quite often that you actually discuss with your observer partner on what people do and what should've been done instead.

But as I already mentioned I love to observe games. Why I love to observe games I can't really tell but it's always intresting watching 1007 going WC yolo with thrall on 8 or other uncommon stuff.

But at the same time I want this to be handled the same way as the 50% min rec value:
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=94836

Where the majority of the league want something too be done against the suicide but nothing was done. So if it's a 27 to 15 vote for NO in this poll I don't see any reason at all why you should not allow us to observe games.

[Psyclone]

I think if we don't trust each other this whole league project is kinda obsolete, no?

[tariqtd]

i have bad pc as all knew and i am always got sniped out , so obs spot is nice to stay
for ghost issue i do not think ppl do that .....
salam and gl

[Don_Killuminati]

Imo, we guys all knows each others, so we already knows who are apt to ghost for who.
For exemple, i had a game 2months ago where i had a high uncertaintly about a obs ghosting since the other team sent warr when they had 1ygg and we got super lame vs warr, so i did whisper obs, which he did denied that he was ghosting, but i was still doubt on him.
So if you guys got any doubt on someone ghosting, imo the best way is that to just kick him, no need to doesn't allow obs for minor cheat probabilitys ~1% .
@LIHL mods, u guys should in the firt place start to ss test a way more frequently ; if you guys doubt on LIHL players.