Allowing observers

Moderator: LIHL Staff

Should we allow observers in LIHL?

Yes
19
58%
No
12
36%
Don't know/don't care
2
6%
 
Total votes: 33

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Nore
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Re: Allowing observers

Postby Nore » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:25 pm

Exactly as Don said; creating a rule for maybe 2-3 people who possibly "ghost"(less than 1% of the league) just seems too extreme to me. Integrity should matter here; this game is quite old and does not need more restrictions. There would be a lot more negativity surrounding this rule change than positive results. As FQ said, many people join obs as a way to still feel a part of the game, even when they are not able to actually sign and play. It's also a way for people to learn new strats, and obviously downloading replays all the time is not feasible. There is no interaction in that way, and some computers are already weighed down by low memory problems, so why would we want to further add to that? Also, the argument for komodo is rather weak, because 99% of the time it's a shit tower; easily killed by warriors, and almost useless past level 6. Would there be more komodo games if we eliminated obs? Sure.. but that just doesn't seem like a legit reason to remove obs when we play in such a league.

It is like a leak in our defence to fairplay, and you are saying we should not fix this leak, because it is not nice to think people would abuse the leak. Let's just close the leak? It's easy, no observer and there is no need to all have a huge faith in the superior morals of our players. The advantages of having observers aren't that big, they only lie with the observer (who likes to obs) and I don't think pleasing observers is the main target of LIHL, assuring fairplay is.


I am all for fairplay, but at the expense of more than half the league(because that's how many observe I would say), I just don't see a need for it. If someone is being suspicious, PM us and kick obs when they join; much easier to fix rather than limiting the options of all the players. The pro's definitely do not outweigh the con's here, imo. We can sit and assume all we want, but until there is some real evidence of abuse(which none has been presented so far besides Don's example), and an overwhelming majority in favor, I see no reason to remove observing as an option.
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Re: Allowing observers

Postby Krayyzie » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:29 pm

Of course people are ghosting, the question is just whetever it happens alot or just a minor problem, that i can not tell, but i remember when people started to use mic while playing, cant remember if it was skype or some other program,but was prolly 1.5-2 years ago. I used it for 1 game, and I didnt even know who were in the skype, but one single game. I heard info that could be used to gain advantage by a good player 2-3 times that game.

If I dont remember wrong, there was even an forum thread opened, or just a big discussion after game, about it, and the obs who gave the info, didnt even believe the info he gave was ghosting. For example " wow, he held with X value", and such things.

And whoever believes that there doesnt exist any ghosting in this league, I would say you most likely need to open ur eyes. Im quite sure both ghost and mh exists in this league. Everything from someone saying who leaks lvl 1 before units arrive to mid, to someone building full anti 15, telling team during 12 that the enemies will send 15, and then all of sudden after 13, he builds fully anti 14 and tells team to do same( when there´s absolutely no kind of proof or realistic reason for enemies to send 14), and then, you wont get suprised that enemies actually send 14.

Just a side question, is this ss test actually working vs mhers? its not possible to turn those programs off during pause? I would guess more people should´ve been caught if it wasnt possible :P But as mick says, its Impossible to prove ghosting, as there is no kind of proof of ghosting if people use for example skype or mumble or whatever other programs that exist.

Positives
*No ghosting
*More games will be started

Negatives
*People cant observe and learn
*People cant observe when they dont have anything else to do
*New vouches and moderators cant obs either(I´d say if you go with no, go with no, its been proven already that moderators can abuse just as much as other players, ss tests can be made from outside the game by whispering a player in the game)

I probably wont vote,since I dont really care :) Its just fun when you beat players you believe are abusing those kind of things. On the other hand, they get advantages which is bad. And would be quite boring not to be able to watch when you get left out when a game starts.

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Re: Allowing observers

Postby dweiler » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:00 pm

Nore wrote: an overwhelming majority in favor, I see no reason to remove observing as an option.


This I do agree with. This is merely an inventarization if the concern of ghosting is shared by the community/if people care about it.
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Re: Allowing observers

Postby AvadaKedavra » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:01 pm

Meh. I think people overreact to this whole "ghosting" issue. For ghosting to happen there would need to be 2 players involved. The guy in obs "seing" the information AND a guy in one team willing to "accept" this information. Most of the time obs are ppl like nore, 1007, etc. I doubt it's a big issue at all (although im sure it has happened on rare occasions)

Personally I don't care since I almost never obs, but I think it would be stupid to remove the feature for those who enjoy it

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Re: Allowing observers

Postby MarshMallows » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:28 pm

Ghosting seems pretty unthinkable to me, but reading through everything you guys have written, I now am more in the mind that it probably does happen on occasion. I initially voted to keep observing as I think it can be usefull for some new vouches, but now I think kicking obs spots when the game starts would be a really good idea. I don't want to be putting my time and effort into trying to win a game and some asshole is cheating making the odds go way in the other teams favor.

I am also aware that if obs spots are banned, Nore will essentially become homeless. We will need to band together and find temporary accommodation for Nore until he can figure out what he wants to do with his new found spare time.

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Re: Allowing observers

Postby Nore » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:19 pm

It obviously would not be banned from keeping trial vouches or mods out, I was speaking for the normal vouches who would be kept away from enjoying obs when they wanted to. No need to make it personal :(
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Re: Allowing observers

Postby FQ-CoM » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:25 pm

Krayyzie wrote:
Of course people are ghosting, the question is just whetever it happens alot or just a minor problem, that i can not tell, but i remember when people started to use mic while playing, cant remember if it was skype or some other program,but was prolly 1.5-2 years ago. I used it for 1 game, and I didnt even know who were in the skype, but one single game. I heard info that could be used to gain advantage by a good player 2-3 times that game.

If I dont remember wrong, there was even an forum thread opened, or just a big discussion after game, about it, and the obs who gave the info, didnt even believe the info he gave was ghosting. For example " wow, he held with X value", and such things.



I can tell all of you without being harm, or making myself look good in anyway, but since lihl is "the biggest you can reach in LTD" it's nothing compared to other games. I've played too much other games, mostly CounterStrike at a close professional level, or as we would say in Sweden, semi-elite. It was the same rules there. If you did not want someone or anyone to observe the game you just said that and they had to leave. The same goes for here in LIHL and I would say that LTD is 100% more easy counterable than Counter-Strike because you can read kill speeds, leaks, damage/bounty, than comparing too any other game. We've all played this so much that atleast the most basic calls should for sure not be a problem ( for example on lv.1).

If you got any counter acts for ghosting, or anything else, prove them to me.

I might bew new to legion. I reached 1200+ bot late last december but my goal is to improve and become the best in every game I play. But I feel ya if people can't still call out a harlot/bear or ygg, aqua/turr or archer on leaks they don't belong in this league.

@Krayyzie this is just not for you, but you seemed to defend the non-observer I want you to show proof why observing should not be allowed and of course if anyone else has proof for something, go ahead post them.

Actually i think this is a great topic, but as the same with the 0% min rec value this will go nowhere.

I outed myself enough know and this is my honest opinions and I hope others do aswell.

I am always up for discussions.

/Peace
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Re: Allowing observers

Postby Tom_hardy » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:30 pm

At first: thanks for pointing that out marsh, i thought the same about nore when reading this :D
I dont understand why we would test for mh but not eliminate other cheating possibilties.
Either we trust each other or not.
If not i have to say i dont rly care if there are a few blacksheeps in one way or the other, its not like that would change my gaming experience since i dont know about it anyway (and in general i like to trust people). I dont care for ss test since its a very small thing, but the missing obs spot however would take something away, so i vote for keeping it.

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Re: Allowing observers

Postby FQ-CoM » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:59 pm

Tom_hardy wrote:At first: thanks for pointing that out marsh, i thought the same about nore when reading this :D
I dont understand why we would test for mh but not eliminate other cheating possibilties.
Either we trust each other or not.
If not i have to say i dont rly care if there are a few blacksheeps in one way or the other, its not like that would change my gaming experience since i dont know about it anyway (and in general i like to trust people). I dont care for ss test since its a very small thing, but the missing obs spot however would take something away, so i vote for keeping it.



This has nothing to do with you Tom.

Though since I got vouched in April I've still not had to do a single SS test. I mean it's close to 6 months and not 1 SS test. The only one I witnessed was when I observer in a game. I mean I played over 250+(?) games but I really don't know exact and atleast way more observer games than games played.

I could understand that people are more worried about ghosting than MH, but there's arue if someone disagree to obs the have to leave.

Though I'll be sad, forever sad, since I lvoe to obs games, eating, sleeping and so on. I'm not gonna put my points here but I'm sure that I'm not the only one here that have the same feelings like me.
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Re: Allowing observers

Postby Krayyzie » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:46 pm

:) just a side notice since you quoted me :P i didnt vote yet and will prolly vote to keep obs :) my whole point was writing here that ghosting doesnt exist is just wrong. The question is just whetever its used alot or at a minor scale. Im Very sure its used

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Re: Allowing observers

Postby DJ.FM » Fri Sep 09, 2016 9:44 pm

I love obs it fun after a few games or if you miss a game i chat but never do i anything that can lead to a call or someone building differently if anyone ghosted for me they would of been reported now.

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Re: Allowing observers

Postby MarshMallows » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:22 pm

If obs spots were to be banned for everyone, I wouldn't find it very fair that mods were allowed to use them in a "social" manner. Surely there would need to be a reason beyond "I like to obs" such as a screen shot test.

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Re: Allowing observers

Postby Nore » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:32 pm

Then everytime a mod joined obs, a person who might be maphacking will know they are only there to SS test and turn it off.. obviously we are going to keep obs open to both trial vouches and mods at all times, that isn't even up for debate. It is not a "social" thing at all really, but rather a necessity. What is being debated here is whether or not obs should be allowed in order to prevent ghosting, which the vote shows will more than likely not happen.
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MarshMallows

Re: Allowing observers

Postby MarshMallows » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:34 pm

You can join as a secret agent though... not under your real name but under a name like "agent Smith - map hack tester"

MarshMallows

Re: Allowing observers

Postby MarshMallows » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:42 pm

I mean...if people arent allowed obs and you are in lobby observing, you dont think people will turn it off anyway? ^^


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