Allowing observers

[Jamo]

You can compare this poll with the one on the trust of taking old maphackers back. We take a rate of 80-90% there, because we don't want people to get exposed to the risk if they don't want to and it's not needed. When it is about trusting something you almost can't proof, the trust needs to be really high to allow that. If 9/25 people says they don't trust that is a big group that needs to be taken seriously. With that said, no conclusions yet, of course. We will look at outcomes and arguments and make fair decision.

Only that now it's a Mod who started this topic out of nowhere without any incidence or something else triggering it. It's not like somebody said "Can we remove obs spot because I feel like people abuse it" and a topic was started to discuss it. We have a huge discussion here now, with several different opinions, which ofc will not come together, and I personally don't get the reason. I mean, it's ok to discuss it, but I am a bit on Nore's side here, it feels like you are pushing really hard to remove the obs spot, and I just wonder why. Feels like there must be a deeper reason.

But like I said, I rly don't care. I never use obs spot and I trust people not to ghost. It's different than map hack imo, two peple are needed to ghost, which also completely trust each other not to say anything to anyone else. I dunno, imo there are not so many super friend groups in here, a few maybe. And if people have several lgood friends here, I automatially think they have good attitude and don't ghost. For MH, you are alone. Maybe also a drama causing person, or someone who is not like so much, which is the reason why the person thinks he really has to show the others whos "best" and then does MH. For me, totally different.

best,
Jamo

[MarshMallows]

Lihl is full of tight clicks... are you serious Jamo?

[dweiler]

@Jamo , like I said before, someone asked me about observer spots. Then I started thinking about it and came to the conclusion it is actually not a good thing to have observers, especially after I learned that observer spots were never meant to be used in the way it is now. So I decided to share it here and explain my opinion why it should be removed. It seems like a lot of people are like me, they never really thought about it and see now how weird it is to have observers, or already thought about it but didn't want to mention it. If you think I have some hidden agenda or something, I can't help that. I do not, I am just sharing my opinion and arguing why I think this is the best thing to do.

As said before, SS-tests can easily be done outside of observer spot, and if you want to watch games you can watch replays. There is just no 'real' reason why observers have to be there, and there is a 'real' reason that they should not, namely that you expose people to threats of ghosting without any way to control it (I have seen several other good reasons too concerning signing).

@Tom_hardy , referees/obs is a good point, but it doesn't help if people are on skype or mumble et cetera.

Edit: I don't really like the argument 'people haven't complained about it', because that is my main point. It is impossible to see. The only way to see it is if they make really good calls, and of course I have had games where enemies made perfect calls, I bet you have too. But that is as far as you can get and yo will just look silly if you are gonna post on forum because enemy makes perfect calls. I do feel like it is abused and/or has been abused, I am pretty certain of it, but why would I go make accusations based on nothing? What would that add to the fact that observer spot is really sensitive for abuse? If people whisper and/or speak on a 3rd party program you will never know what is happening.

[FadingSuns]

At this point i really dont know waht to say/add... I have never feel like i am being ghosted/maphacked. Would be sad to lose that obvs spots is the only thing i feel. I do never obvs, maybe 1 or 2 games per season, but i think that really noone ghost here, cant imagine why would someone ghost in this fking game.... In any case, i dont think that any of our usual TOP players (where i am OFC included into the very high fking top ) does any kind of cheat... Also, as Jamo posted... How do you start a conversation with other guy to propose GHOST in a serious way? kinda rare this topic... You need 2 ppl for that

In any case, what worries me more is what I commented on my first post and the solution provided my Micky is enought for me at this point.

I dont really know how we end into such agressive environment, and seems to me that noone appart Mick really wants to close it but...

[MarshMallows]

At this point i really dont know waht to say/add... I have never feel like i am being ghosted/maphacked. Would be sad to lose that obvs spots is the only thing i feel. I do never obvs, maybe 1 or 2 games per season, but i think that really noone ghost here, cant imagine why would someone ghost in this fking game.... In any case, i dont think that any of our usual TOP players (where i am OFC included into the very high fking top ) does any kind of cheat... Also, as Jamo posted... How do you start a conversation with other guy to propose GHOST in a serious way? kinda rare this topic... You need 2 ppl for that

In any case, what worries me more is what I commented on my first post and the solution provided my Micky is enought for me at this point.

I dont really know how we end into such agressive environment, and seems to me that noone appart Mick really wants to close it but...

I'd bet you any amount that ghosting does happen. How can you trust random internet people?

[FadingSuns]

Fken TKMARSH u consider me a random internet guy? I think we know enuf each other after years to trust each other no? At least i know u dont cheat me right? or should i feel like im not "secure"?.

Man if i even have to question myself if ppl that i consider "Friends" in many cases is cheating me i just leave this game...

Whatever the solution for this topic is IDC. But on the first momment i feel that any of the ones i cosider Friends is cheating at me i jst uninstall WC3...

[dweiler]

Would be sad to lose that obvs spots is the only thing i feel. I do never obvs, maybe 1 or 2 games per season, but i think that really noone ghost here, cant imagine why would someone ghost in this fking game....

I agree with that, I also enjoy observing sometimes. But in my opinion observing just shouldn't be there for reasons I mentioned before. About not ghosting. Why would people maphack in this league? Yet we had enough of them. I also can't imagine people would want to kill each other, yet it happens and you need to take it into account in rules, even though it's not fun to think of.

How do you start a conversation with other guy to propose GHOST in a serious way? kinda rare this topic... You need 2 ppl for that

I don't think it goes like that I have so often been in situation where the situation is so easy to ghost. If your best friends are playing and saying 'I really don't know when we should send', it's not that hard to see how this can lead to ghosting. I have seen all sorts of those whispers.

I dont really know how we end into such agressive environment, and seems to me that noone appart Mick really wants to close it but...

Am I being aggressive? I am sorry if it comes across like that. I am just convinced we should close observer spots. That's why I made this topic, and take the time to show my point of view to people who take the time to discuss this matter. I don't mean to be aggressive and/or disregard any opinions and I am always open to change my point of view/get a result that is fair to all. But I should also be able to explain my point of view if I made a topic with a proposal. And I don't think I am the only one.. Like I said, I never thought about it before, and if someone else made this topic I would support them too after thinking about it.

Man if i even have to question myself if ppl that i consider "Friends" in many cases is cheating me i just leave this game...

To be honest, in my opinion, if observer spots are open you are forced to 'consider' if friends are cheating you (and then you can choose to trust or not). If observer spots are closed you don't have to consider it because it is not possible. Isn't that an elegant solution?

[MarshMallows]

You gonna let me babysit your kids Ace? no.. u dno me and I could be anyone! Its a numbers game.... Im sure most people are fine but it only takes one.

[Tom_hardy]

maybe skype/mumble would still work, but it least we could get rid of all whispering by changing the observer rights from referee to observer.
I think that would kill most ghosting rly and sounds like a decent compromise.

[Jamo]

@Jamo , like I said before, someone asked me about observer spots. Then I started thinking about it and came to the conclusion it is actually not a good thing to have observers, especially after I learned that observer spots were never meant to be used in the way it is now. So I decided to share it here and explain my opinion why it should be removed. It seems like a lot of people are like me, they never really thought about it and see now how weird it is to have observers, or already thought about it but didn't want to mention it. If you think I have some hidden agenda or something, I can't help that. I do not, I am just sharing my opinion and arguing why I think this is the best thing to do.

I must have missed your motivation opening this topic, sorry for that. You just were so pushy with your opinion from the beginning, that it really felt strange for me.

@Marsh I know there are friend groups here, ofc. But I think its rare that one in this group is obs and ghosts instead of playing. I might be wrong w/e, I can't help myself, but I just don't distrust everybody, might be naive, but I rather do it like this and get proven wrong from time to time instead of not trusting anyone.

Also, with the basically not-existent SS tests, I think it really doesn't matter anyhow at the moment. But, I am now just arguing on a side I pushed myself to. For me personally, the only reason to remove it is the Komodo problem. Otherwise I think we are a family and if someone wants to hang out in obs, it's ok. I also don't think more games will start when obs is removed, because typically people are busy, tired or whatever when they are in obs. And if there are more people here that like to obs games than fearing ghosting, I would say keep it. But I also understand if it gets removed.

[Nore]

You guys have gotten way off track and made it personal. I am not fighting for my individual right to obs; if you haven't noticed, I don't even obs that much these days. I just know people will be upset to lose obs, and as many have said that are not a select few, they enjoy obsing and I think it is only creating more negativity to remove it.. once you start making this personal, it's safe to say you've gone too far.

Stay on the topic at hand; I promise I will not lose any sleep over obs spots... and it's pretty rude to assume otherwise. Let the voting speak for itself, and please refrain from trolling if you want to be taken seriously.

[Dong]

My turn.

I have seen mumble being mentioned a couple of times, and i would like to share a bit of how our games/chat goes. Firstly, a lot of the time we are 4-6 people on at a time, and i can asure you we are all competitive. Secondly, the thing we do most, is trash talk each other. And frankly just enjoy the "guy" chats.. now, if we are 4 people and end up in the same game 2vs2 or 3vs1 we either 1) no game strats/info on mumble or 2) go in seperate mumble channels untill the game is over. I have experienced many times that someone on my team fucks up or someone from the enemy(other mumble players) team fucks up, early game. And 10/10 times we say " yo i gotta tell you what happened, after arena. So in matters of mumble and my personal experience, i have witnessed nothing but fair gaming and good spirits. Tho we shit talk each other (mostly tin tbh) alot.

Golden Dong out-

[BA_Fail]

You guys are paranoid, and so full of yourselves. Do you guys really think people are ghosting specifically to beat you?

The good points brought up are that it can bug komodo, which is actually a big problem as it takes away a possible start since warriors are a thing.

Also I don't like observing games, but if I do want to play I will observe and I'll check from time to time and once it's nearing the end I'll leave and start a game. I know some people also like to observe so I don't care if they observe one of my games, it's fine how it is, and we should still kick observers if somebody doesn't want them

[dweiler]

You guys are paranoid, and so full of yourselves. Do you guys really think people are ghosting specifically to beat you?

I'm sorry BA, but if you go in with stretched leg, I can reply to you, wtf is this nonsense? We have had plenty of people maphacking in LIHL to beat us, why couldn't they ghost? I don't know where you get your all-knowing wisdom from that ghosting doesn't happen. This is just an argument based on ridiculing others, doesn't suit you well.

Can I also point out the irony of Nore saying we should not make things personal and the next post in which someone makes it extremely personal, saying people who try to make post based on arguments and not ridiculing someone who doesn't agree with them, are paranoid and full of themselves, he thanks for the post?

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother...

[Nore]

I thanked him for his overall message, not for one particular aspect.. you are going in circles Mick, and it's pretty clear to see. You are losing your objectivity here, because clearly not all agree with you, yet you won't just let the poll that you added be. I could point out so many flaws of your logic, and already have, and yet you still have provided little-to-no real solution, besides the easy stuff; "mods can SS test from outside obs, trials can download replays". I point out exactly what is wrong with that logic, and you just ignore it and repeat yourself. You do not conduct SS tests as far as I remember, so obviously it's easy to say that you "could" do so outside of obs, but if you have done as many as I have, you would see just how frustrating and confusing it can be without a mod there to really conduct it.

Please try and be objective if you are going to continue to post here; this is a topic you started, and it seems now that many have come out against it, your back is against the wall and you are trying to play it off like the rest of us are crazy or something.. i'm not quite sure tbh. But valid points have been brought up, and all you do is defend your same points instead of address the others.. seems like we're heading nowhere. Don't be so defensive; let the poll and the players speak for themselves. That is the professional way, if you ask me.

P.S. This already seems to have headed in the wrong direction, and is not providing much productivity anymore.. Topic will be locked if this continues down the wrong path.