Make ID competitive again

[Burn]

When has it been discussed before? I never seen a topic on this in my life.

And why wouldn't it be ID any more? Wutface.

There will be a lot of changes, no doubt. But, in order for it to be fair for both teams, you don't have to change any numbers, because both teams would have the same advantages and disadvantages.

All you need to do is nerf the OP builder/titans, and buff the weak builder/titans later.

It's 100% unnecessary that I am expected to be the one to list all the theorised changes. We can do all that in the alpha tests.

I disagree with the fact that I haven't thought it through. The reason why this topic is so negative is because when people see the negatives, you tunnel vision on all the negatives and not see all the positives. You guys aren't looking at the bigger picture, but at the little trivial details. Shouldn't you judge a suggestion by both the pros and the cons?

The bigger picture is this:

1) No more stall games, rounds can even be ended in 5 minutes if titan doesn't get enough done.
2) No more boring games where builders EB and stay in the base and carry after 60 minutes. At least this way, if you have a shit titan, you can stomp the builders back by being titan in the next game.
3) An actual balanced ELO system due to 5v5.
4) Actual teamwork is now required to win games instead of solo shit-bases and less chance of feeders.
5) Actual balanced inhouses that make sense.

-Burn

[wastedlandering]

Trump title
Trump idea
Trump (lack of) plan

Burn is Trump, confirmed

[Burn]

Just look at this suggestion where everyone but me shits on for no legit reason, and you can see why I think you guys aren't giving my suggestion the time of day:

viewtopic.php?f=244&t=89106

-Burn

[FollowingPath]

@Burn Do you honest to god think that you made a good suggestion thread that can intrique people just by saying "Let's split the ID map in two and make it 5v5"? People want more information. If you had adressed any of the points that I've pointed out it would've given people a lot more to discuss than the suggestion itself. Please don't turn this into a "The whole forum is against me for no reason" kind of topic.

[Burn]

There's so many more changes that would be needed than your small list of proposed changes. This topic isn't about that, it's about whether or not we should make ID competitive again. I don't understand how to make myself more clear. It's not about balance and the small problems that the map might need changing, therefore the things you want me to list is irrelevant and off-topic. So is discussing whether or not we will find a developer. That isn't the point of the topic.

Someone has made one point that I have questioned without an answer: Why would the map drastically be different from default ID? Everything could be the same as default ID, just the numbers changed.

I don't want people discussing numbers and balance, I want to see if the community thinks this new map is a good idea. Especially the competitive players, who knows that 10v1 is too hard to balance, whereas 5v5 is 100x easier to balance for a competitive in-house scene.

You really have just jumped onto the negativity pessimist bandwagon without thinking for yourself.

-Burn

[FollowingPath]

The reason you give your own thoughts on balancing and changes is so that people don't change their minds halfway through. Someone who expects it to be a direct ID copy with a 5v5 twist might suddenly not like the idea if it's decided that builders who don't lumberbase would have to be removed, or that some of their favorite titans would need to be reworked.

How can you expect resonable people to say that they are 100% behind the idea when almost everything about it can be subjected to change? There are too many unknown variables at the moment.

[Burn]

Use your imagination. The game can be however the community or developer wants it to be, I don't need to set the details for an entire game franchise. I'm merely proposing a vague idea.

The size of each side would be a problem. What about pearls? Wouldn't early basing be too dominant since it would be difficult to have a lumberbase up on a map that's too small? Starting with a minion on the titan side is another problem here.
And how would a victor be decided? FIrst titan to kill 3 builders wins, first titan to die loses?
How much thought have you actually put into this other than "let's make Island Defense 5v5"? A detailed post with your thoughts on several of the changes that would need to be made would be very appreciated.

As I said, these are "balance changes" aren't what I'm proposing the new map is going to be like exactly, I think the developer/community should decide what the map should be like. But since you are so adamant on the details - For your amusement, I'll answer any questions you guys will propose, or any problems you can think of that'd need fixing. For starters:

1) Each side would be a square around half the size of the current ID map. The end map design would be a rectangle.
2) Pearls would obviously only work on one side of the map. If you want to reveal the other side of the map or reveal the whole map like pot of omniscience, you could make it an expensive item or something that automatically gets revealed after 5/10/15 minutes.
3) All buildings are unable to be made/attack in the first 3/4/5 minutes, or the titan starts out insanely strong in the first few minutes, then gets progressively weaker as time passes by, until he gets to 0-0 damage and perishes.
4) Having a minion is essential for a fast-paced game, else builder would just camp at one spot. Care to address the problem?
5) Victor is best of one, two (draw possible) or best of three. Continues can be an optional game mode to make it best of 3/5/7/9/11.
6) As I said, I've put a lot of thought into this. But, I think the community/developer should be the one deciding what the new map should be like.
7) Like I said, that isn't the point of the topic, but I'll answer anything that you find confusing.

-Burn

[Bakery94]

Can't believe no-one has said this, I'm all for it! ID is very unbalanced and you wait 30 mins in lobby for someone to feed the titan first death in 2 mins, if you ever need anyone to bounce ideas off i'm all ears

[TooNoobForU]

Can't believe no-one has said this, I'm all for it! ID is very unbalanced and you wait 30 mins in lobby for someone to feed the titan first death in 2 mins, if you ever need anyone to bounce ideas off i'm all ears

this being said, it only depend on the skill of the titan lol

above average titans usually kill within 2 mins to not prologn the game

while noob titan tend to get killed by builders first 10 mins since they only camp and no mini first 5 mins


AND there are STALL titan (me)

which win the game in an hour

[wastedlandering]

AND there are STALL titan (me)

which refuse to win the game in under an hour

fixed

[Merex]

It's 100% unnecessary that I am expected to be the one to list all the theorised changes. We can do all that in the alpha tests.

I disagree with the fact that I haven't thought it through. The reason why this topic is so negative is because when people see the negatives, you tunnel vision on all the negatives and not see all the positives. You guys aren't looking at the bigger picture, but at the little trivial details. Shouldn't you judge a suggestion by both the pros and the cons?

The bigger picture is this:

1) No more stall games, rounds can even be ended in 5 minutes if titan doesn't get enough done.
2) No more boring games where builders EB and stay in the base and carry after 60 minutes. At least this way, if you have a shit titan, you can stomp the builders back by being titan in the next game.
3) An actual balanced ELO system due to 5v5.
4) Actual teamwork is now required to win games instead of solo shit-bases and less chance of feeders.
5) Actual balanced inhouses that make sense.

-Burn

I really hate to be another negative nancy on your thread but this definitely doesn't seem like ID at all in a sense.. When you think of Island Defense, you think 1 titan and 10 builders. These changes are gonna propose that to be altered drastically. ID is a survival game and adding more competitiveness is just gonna tarnish it's origin, it's meaning.

-3 builders on 1 side vs 1 mini and 1 titan. That either means 2 of these 3 builders if not all of them have to cram into one spot and force-share resources then proceed to triple base while looking both directions for both a minion and a titan.
-3 builders on the other side doing the exact same thing as above
-The actual titan and the minion are either gonna be going into constant melee battles with the opposing or desperately hunting down these 3 builders.
-What about the actual builders? What is their role in this exactly? It seems more like a race between the titan/minions.
-A lot of this is gonna bring out team stacking too which DotA alone suffers hard from. So if let's say you (Burn) and one of your friends decide to team up as minion/titan and just annihilate all day long then what? Pubs learn to counter you? It's shifting to the exact same principle as right now.
-What if all 6 builders on each side manage to get up unbreakable bases? So the titan/minions of both sides are just basically stuck battling each-other or something?
-How do the sides gain gold? Are there 2 mounds? Are red/blue builders technically considered enemies or?
-Initially by this logic, the blue titan which is on the red side is obv an ally of the blue side so is there a barrier in the middle of the map or what?

I could keep going on and making this complicated but that's just my thoughts. Again, in a bigger picture this does seem nice I'm not gonna lie but it's just another map tbh. If you wanna pursue this with a 3rd party editor and try it then I will by all means join you and take part in testing but in no way should collide with ID. Where the current system stands, ID is fine where it is.

Point being - Even if by some means there's a sudden worldwide agreement on this then an editor would actually have to make these changes and given Neco's recent activity I highly doubt he'll start a new side project for this so the realistic point of this is just a unique idea and nothing more.

[Burn]

1) An interesting idea I came up with: The map is split up in quarters. Only two builders can be in the same quarter at the same time. Mid can hold 3 builders, so you can triple base at mid.

This means titan can either kill the staller running around in his section, or aim for the duo guys. This would also mean the solo builder could be a baser hording gold for a solo base with a merchant + lumber feeding.

I did say something about no early basing for X amount of minutes, a minion + titan should be able to kill them before they trip. base. Also, I don't even think early triple basing is a good idea, since you'd have no lumber income unless you was a draenei with multiple summoners, or a seed to feed builder.

Bans should take care of OP bases.

2) That's what makes it balanced.

3) Yep, instead of builders being bored inside bases and at mid, titan and minion get to hunt down the builders.

4) Role as builders is to survive, same as normal ID.

5) Pubs will learn. It's actually hard to beat tryhard builders in pubs on my main sometimes, unless I play feed to win. We'd also get sub-par ELO if we stacked. Triple stacking in normal ID is already fucked anyway.

6) Draw / sudden death. If this happens too often, then builders can be nerf/buffed and/or titans can be nerf/buffed.

7) Yes, two mounds.

8) Yes, a barrier is required to separate the two halves of the map.

9) Yes, it's just fun to discuss though, I don't think it'll be made, but I still think it's a solid idea for the future in case someone wants to pick it up. I don't think it should be made on wc3, because then it might be the death of ID if it split the community. I was thinking more in lines of dota2 or sc2. Even better, wc4.

-Burn

[1337hamburger]

I've been tinkering around with a map like this, but what I've been thinking/ doing isn't too similar to some of the stuff you suggest. (but there is still a lot in common)

Anyways; you can pm me if you want to shoot some ideas back and forth. @burn

[Burn]

My ideas are basically making the staller play-style a more viable strategy and make ID faster-paced. Stalling can be really fun when you put your mind to it. In current normal ID, titan can just ignore the staller completely, only to protect mound from him.

When it is 3v1 and he spams health bonuses, the staller is a much juicer target because of the extra minion.

-Burn