Complaint about the LIHL-admins

[BeepBoopBeep]

but that they will not take a perfectly good measure in practice that will nullify the PPers, but rather stay with a fraudulent system.

Actually i believe we are adding a penalty so that when somebody does disconnect (intentional or not) they will receive (-elo) even if the game is drawn. Along the lines of what supersexyy suggested to you earlier.

[iightfyre]

Well, if you are talking about it this way, okay.....let me present an example. iightfyre and I are friends and are playing on different teams. Team A and Team B. My elo is low as it is, so I don't care about it, however iight's is pretty high. I can disconnect (intentionally or not), leaving my team handicapped in a 4v3, which more or less my team will lose. GAME MUST CONTINUE.......4V3...PLAY ON!!!! How is your system not flawed? It is still flawed.

^ This is a good mention, Hate2Lose.

@Mickie -

If you see this example you can see how if there was no !draw rule, PP can still become a "strategy" to help a friend out. So, neither system is "strategy proof".

Thank you again for your insights. We do take them seriously and will expect to see DC's result in an ELO loss in the near future. Hopefully this will be a good enough deterrent to eliminate any intentional PP that there may be.

[dweiler]

Thanks for getting into talking again, guys. The reason I want the opposing, rather than the 'defending' (the team with the disconnecter) to decide to draw is because of the strategy I stated earlier. You can agree with eachother to alternately disconnect so you both have an advantage. This means A will pull the plug one game which is a near loss, he will get the ELO penalty (of 15 elo you are suggesting?), and player B gets the draw. The 2nd game player B will pull the plug taking the 15 elo penalty and B gets the draw. In this way both player have saved 1 loss and about 15 elo. Of course, the defending team will want to draw if you are losing and do the plug trick - this is not strategy-proof.

My solution of playing might result in unfair games, I grant you all that. If you are playing and you have a disconnect you will undoubtedly have a disadvantage 80% of the games. However, if we all agree to not draw, we will all experience this every once in a while (to Milena, I do not make it sound like it happens often, I said 5% of the games, I have played almost 40 games now and drew more than 2x, so I was low with my estimate). Because of a-bal, there are no strict teams, so the chance of having a disconnecting opponent is equal for everyone, so it is not like 1 person will have 20 disconnects in his team and the other 0. The numbers will be about equal. I have also said you can have epic games (look at the example I gave when I lost 3v2 in the LIHL) with disconnects, so it is not so dramatic as all have said.

EDIT: to Hatelose's counterexample. The fact is you cannot get a benefit from this strategy. You will always end up getting worse. Besides, a more effective way than disconnecting is to make bad towers and not say the good towers you have. Playing to lose cannot be avoided in any system on the world. Of course, Dortmund can play vs Bayern München in the CL final and pretend their best players are sick, because they want Bayern München to win (is this comparable to a disconnect? I don't know.. but you get the point) so that they lose. Of course you can't avoid this. Using disconnect to your own advantage, however, can.

EDIT 2: iightfyre, we are close to a compromise, which is that the opposing team of the disconnecter may decide whether to draw or not. Do you agree with this?

[supersexyy]

which is that the opposing team of the disconnecter may decide whether to draw or not.

Do you mean the team with the disconnector? They've always had the option of whether they want to draw or not.

[iightfyre]

Do you mean the team with the disconnector? They've always had the option of whether they want to draw or not.

^ Correct, they always have the option.

[HateLose]

The reason I want the opposing, rather than the 'defending' (the team with the disconnecter) to decide to draw is because of the strategy I stated earlier. You can agree with eachother to alternately disconnect so you both have an advantage. This means A will pull the plug one game which is a near loss, he will get the ELO penalty (of 15 elo you are suggesting?), and player B gets the draw. The 2nd game player B will pull the plug taking the 15 elo penalty and B gets the draw. In this way both player have saved 1 loss and about 15 elo. Of course, the defending team will want to draw if you are losing and do the plug trick - this is not strategy-proof.

EDIT: to Hatelose's counterexample. The fact is you cannot get a benefit from this strategy. You will always end up getting worse. Besides, a more effective way than disconnecting is to make bad towers and not say the good towers you have. Playing to lose cannot be avoided in any system on the world. Of course, Dortmund can play vs Bayern München in the CL final and pretend their best players are sick, because they want Bayern München to win (is this comparable to a disconnect? I don't know.. but you get the point) so that they lose. Of course you can't avoid this. Using disconnect to your own advantage, however, can.

Mickey, with this being said; it goes to my other point, one which I didn't mention because I didn't see the reasoning at the time, but you presented it well for me. You mentioned you wanted the opposing team, team with the disconnected player to decide whether or not to draw. Am I correct? If so, then that's another flaw. I can play on the same team with iightfyre, beepboopbeep, milena and we can determine.......during the game "hey, it looks like we are gonna lose" Someone should "PP" on our team so we can draw. Hate2Lose disconnected from the game. Everyone draws! My team doesn't suffer the lose, because we decided to draw. Regardless people will find a loophole to everything.

Edit: The best thing to do is punish the player disconnecting. Make them suffer the elo lose. Honestly, that's the only way I can see it being "fair play". Everyone else, if it's before lvl 20......draw

[xMilena]

^^^

EDIT 2: iightfyre, we are close to a compromise, which is that the opposing team of the disconnecter may decide whether to draw or not. Do you agree with this?

I think he is trying to say the team that still has all 4 players (and didn't have a teammate disconnect) should be the ones who decide if the game should be drawed or not, which is completely illogical and unfair.

Edit: Everything @MickieTheMousie said below and suggested is completely ludacris. I don't see anything wrong with the current system, in regards to the possibility of plug-pulling abuse, this is just a "what if" situation he has made up to try to get the rule changed. If he doesn't like how in-house league is set up, he shouldn't be in it, all the other players (who are much more active than him and donald) shouldn't be punished by a change of a perfectly good rule because two (and only two) players don't like it. The reason many of us wanted in-house league and signed up for it in the first place is because it adheres to all of the "code of honor" stuff we promoted and followed in HR games (!draw for disconnect and no mercing)...LIHL just made these rules official and brought a higher level of skill to the game.

[dweiler]

I wish this was true, but it is not. First of all, because of the etiquette

We like to have fair games. If someone DC's from the game, it is customary to !draw the game as quickly as possible (prior to lvl 20) so that we can start a new one and enjoy more fair game play. *EDIT (However, it is not viewed as customary to !draw a game after lvl 20, even with a DC)

I know this is not strictly compulsory, but you ask players to adhere this. This is close to compulsory. As I stated earlier it should be undesirable to draw after a disconnect. Not encouraged, but discouraged, because of the strategy-proofness.

Moreover,

Refusing to !draw the game when you are the only player who has not voted

This shows there is no free choice at all. If your allies get impressed by the fact they are playing vs the rank 1 and admin BeepBoopBeep for example, and draw out of fear and out of the etiquette, you are forced to draw as well.

However, if supersexyy iightfyre are really stating that drawing is a free choice, then I ask you to remove at least the drawing part in the etiquette section, and replace it with something like this:

Code: Select all

If a players DCs the opposing team will have the choice whether the game will be drawn or not. It is customary to not draw, because all players will unfortunately have to deal with DCs during their LIHL at one point or another. If nobody draws, this will even each other out. Because we like to see fun and fair games, we have chosen for this method so that nobody can abuse the plug pulling trick when they are losing. Also, we have experienced games with one player less can be really spectacular and they should add another dimension to the LIHL!

@Hatelose, I am sorry but I do not understand your counterexample. If you are losing and you are gonna fake a disconnect, the enemy can say: we want to play on, because we are winning and we suspect a fake disconnect. If you disc when things are even, the enemy can say: we won't play on, we will take the draw, because he had no benefit disconnecting. It seems logical to me. (In the rare exception that the team with the disconnecter still think they win - I would suggest that they not draw: I think that that IS a flaw, and this flaw will not be there in my solution - but that is the cost of finding a compromise. Moreover, this flaw will be there in all the other solutions I have heard too, so it's not a flaw that belongs to this compromise-solution, but to your solution as well).

@xMilena, why is this illogical and unfair? Maybe you think the opposing team will never draw then? I doubt whether this is true. Would you never draw then? I would draw when the teams are still equal. Besides 1. I would find not drawing a good thing, as I have argued many times now. 2. As we say, we leave it to the judgment of the opposing team. As we have said there are a lot of mannered and skilled players here who can make a fair judgment about the game. 3. If they are losing and decide not to draw it is in their own disadvantage, so this would not make sense. 4. Did you realize playing 4vs3 can also be a handicap? Imagine if all players leak 10 units. The team with 4 players will leak 40 and the team with 3 players only 30 then. This is quite a difference, especially if the disconnecter was the only who used his heal already. 5. If the team was already losing and the enemies decide not to draw the outcome will probably be the same as when the person had not disconnected, de facto nothing will change then. 6. Finally, you stated yourself a majority of the players is in favour of drawing. With my compromise you are completely free to always draw, no matter what happens. If the majority of the players is like this, you should get what you want.

Please note I am defending a compromise at this point. Perhaps this is because I am Dutch (check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_model), but I am still the only one reaching out. Tell me how this should be modified to work better and I will be all ears

To be clear, I would still like an independent admin to look at this case if that is possible. I still have the questions I stated in the very first post. I think Hatelose has been very helpful and cooperative in this discussion, but he is not an admin. The admins still showed the same stubbornness and unwillingness to co-operate (not that I asked iightfyre how he felt about the compromise and he did not respond). Moreover, check that I have nothing to gain with my solution, and the admins deliberately stick to a solution that has FRAUD written all over it. That I have nothing to gain is so because I am not in a race with Beep to become first in the league, so I have no advantage of him disconnecting. Also, I have the same chance of having a disconnecter in my team as all other players, so I can be a victim to my rule in the beginning when this rule is implemented. The admins may have everything to gain because they want the exploits to remain (I'm not sure?) or have another reason to stick to worse solution to an easy-to-fix problem.

I'm off to bed now, my response will be later

[HateLose]

@Hatelose, I am sorry but I do not understand your counterexample. If you are losing and you are gonna fake a disconnect, the enemy can say: we want to play on, because we are winning and we suspect a fake disconnect. If you disc when things are even, the enemy can say: we won't play on, we will take the draw, because he had no benefit disconnecting. It seems logical to me. (In the rare exception that the team with the disconnecter still think they win - I would suggest that they not draw: I think that that IS a flaw, and this flaw will not be there in my solution - but that is the cost of finding a compromise. Moreover, this flaw will be there in all the other solutions I have heard too, so it's not a flaw that belongs to this compromise-solution, but to your solution as well).]

Let me see if I can clarify it a little better for you. Okay, as you mentioned, it is up to the team to decide if they want to draw or not.

Scenario 1
Say we are playing 4v4. I'm on the OPPOSITE teams with iightfyre's and I want to feed him elo (because my elo is low and I don't care)....I d/c on purpose mid-game (PP). Will our team draw? Probably because its 3v4 and its a disadvantage to play vs 4 players. Why? They have more resources (stronger sends, faster king ups, etc). Will the other team draw? No, because they have an advantage with 4 players, and it's up to the 4-player team to decide if they want to draw or not (HUGE disadvantage to my team that has 3-players).

Scenario 2
Say we are playing 4v4. I'm on the SAME team with iightfyre. Someone who doesn't have gproxy disconnects early game, due to esocket error (happens once in a while). Other team wants to draw, but since we have an advantage of 4v3, we don't want to draw. I'm sure the other team will throw a hissy fit for not being well-mannered in LIHL. Game ends. They don't want to play again, because it might happen again and they just lost elo for it. They complain.....

Bottom line....whatever you set, someone will always complain about it. Now keep in mind, I am open to all suggestions, but to lower elo for the disconnector is the best solution, imo.

[Krayyzie]

Well , I would agree with you that abusing the draw are actually being done mickey, in the 48 games of lihl i´ve played so far, we´ve probably been drawing like 6 (+- 1-2 games) games, and 5 of those have been the loosing team getting a disconnector, most of those games, 1-2 levels after they send and fail.
However the agression about beep im not sure, i´ve seen him disconnect once, and it was a clear win game for him, so i wouldnt say he´s one of the abusers.

However when it comes to lihl, from my side, its been a failure so far, as it was supposed to be a "good" player league. So far in my 48 games I´ve had 3 clear teamkills( loosing on purpose), those 5 disconnects on loosing team( and 1 when winning), I´ve had a referee Ghost 1 or 2 games(99% sure), and several other weird stuff going on. (the ban´s are actually lower on lihl than pub games...which seems to be the wrong way considering cheating in whats supposed to be a pro league should b considered worse than pub?)

My point is there are still alot of improvements to be made on lihl. Draw rule might be one of them , my suggestions would be -30 elo to whoever disconnects, then draw game, and if its possible keep track on ammount of disconnects and when a player reaches 3 disconnects, a short autoban period untill they´ve explained the disconnects to an mod/admin and if it seems to be clear usage of the rule to not get losses, unvouch. the suggested -15% aint enough, as mickey points out, that would give him the same result as a loss.

[xMilena]

Who are you, Krayyzie?
I can't find a vouch request in the accepted section of the LIHL forum for you.... very strange.

Edit: @Cyber, he pm'ed me, I know who it is now, was just confused because I couldn't find him in the league list

[cyberpunk]

Who are you, Krayyzie?
I can't find a vouch request in the accepted section of the LIHL forum for you.... very strange.

He is vouched anyways it doesn't matter who he is. The community is open to everyone.

You people should quit LTD and play dota to meet more people like you.

I hope the OP don't mind, i'm moving this thread to be resolved in LIHL forum.

[cyberpunk]

They are in favour because they feel it is unfair for the remaining players of the team to have to play 3v4. But in fact this is not unfair, since all players will have to deal with it

Excuse me, I'm slow.. I'd like to say a noob thing.. Let's say you're playing a 3v4 game when it hits lvl 10.. unfortunately ppl send mass shit.. they are 4, your team is 3.. who will send more units, you or them? 1+1 = 2 that's means the other team will send more than you.. Don't you agree, having an extra player in your team, the summons will spread and i'd say it has a small chance of making a difference about leak..
I don't think this example is so clear but I do believe the concept of the game is to find a balance between your value and your lumber to have X income.. when you leak you lose some bounty, it may cause to you a delay to reach 7/15, probably the other team will get it first than your team and for sure they will have more income at the end.. so technically speaking it seems unfair to play a game 3v4 :3

and over a period of time everybody will have had about the same amount of disconnecters in their team.

I don't get it. oO

Moreover, drawing is very susceptible for abusing, in other words, it is not strategy-proof (so what I mean with strategy-proofness is that you cannot illegitimately abuse it for your own gain). I think it is easy to see that it is very advantageous to pull the plug when you are losing, when they draw afterwards and you don't get a loss.

I agree with you on this. Ofc you can't read the admin forum to check it but we had already discussed if there's any suspecious of PP you should make a topic in the LIHL forum and the moderators will check, ppl may be unvouch due to PP.

The admins solution to this is to make the disconnecter lose 15 elo. However, this is also not strategy proof. Suppose the friends A and B are 2 games in the same team and losing, if A fakes a disc in game 1, and B in game 2, they will both have saved eachother 1 loss and (about) 15 elo. I am not claiming this is happening, but it is perfectly feasible to do this in the current (and by the LIHL admin proposed) system.

They can be unvouch if proved it was PP.

Also, you can steal the enemy's ELO by the strategy proposed by the LIHL-admins. For example, imagine A has a 20 ELO lead on B, and they are both in different teams. If A is losing and he pulls the plug he will only lose 15 ELO, but B will lose his chance on gaining 15 ELO, so he won't overtake A. This can also happen if you play vs people you don't like. If you do not want the enemy to gain ELO because you dislike them, you can pull the plug just before you lose to make sure they don't win ELO. This is even more problematic because, as you can imagine, it is very, very hard to prove intentional plugging.

Good point, however the player who did PP will be unvouch and he won't be able to play again on the league :3 unvouch unvouch.. unvouch.. UnVoUCh! oO

My solution is to not draw anymore. As I said, not drawing is not unfair and it is strategy-proof, since intentionally plugging is in no circumstance beneficial for you. There is absolutely no reason to not accept this point of view, yet the admins do not want to.

Sorry but you shouldn't say things you don't know. Like I said before, make use of the rule, if ppl are doing PP so please report them and they will be unvouch. Any case of PP should be posted in this forum

I want to stress again that there is only a small group who thinks drawing is the best thing to do, but the bad thing is that they are in admin positions.

Is this a joke or just an attempt to get attention?

This all can be settled as just a poor judgment of the LIHL admin department, but there is something else going on.

sigh, moving back to complaint

This entire discussion on intentional plugging is because one of the admins themselves, namely BeepBoopBeep, is the main suspect of intentional plugging. As is stated often already in the topics devoted to this, it is almost impossible to prove this. Therefore, I hoped BeepBoopBeep and the other admins would embrace my solution so that this hint of cheating is removed. I think this is the only sensible and right thing to do for an admin and rank 1 player. However, both BeepBoopBeep and his best friend iightfyre refuse to take the 'no draw'-option in consideration. With this they deliberately and unnecessarily let this hint of fraud exist. In fact, this hint becomes even bigger: why would they hang on to an abomination of a rule that clearly benefits cheaters if they want cheaters to be ruled out of the game?

First off, I didn't read any thread about BBB doing PP, if you made this topic and it got denied.. so you should make a separate thread about this case and please put the link of the thread.

I will leave this last part at this question. I am not sure that they do intentionally plug. BUT - the only way we can be sure is not by proving it, because it is nearly impossible to prove it, but by removing the property of susceptibility to fraud. This is by removing the draw option.

I don't mind if you believe me but in the admin forum I said the same thing.. the answer..

PP can be treated case by case and repeat offenders/questionable circumstances will be subject to extra scrutiny. We will focus on suspicious DCs. For example if a player is a repeat offender and regularly disconnects in questionable circumstances then he will be unvouched.

If you want to disagree with the system, so please make a suggestion and not a complaint. oO

My complaint and question to an unbiased admin is therefore two-fold:
1a. Can you confirm that the strategy proof tactic of not drawing is better than drawing?
1b. Can you confirm that the LIHL-admins are deliberately letting this hint of fraud exist on their part and what conclusions do you draw from this?

Perhaps you need to read the entire discussion to make your mind up on this: they are in the following threads:
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=8781
viewtopic.php?f=72&t=8775

zomg you made a suggestion, so why you don't wait for the result? oO

To put an end to this story, hi, I'm cyberpunk, you don't know me but the admins around us know me very well if there's any kind of abuse they will be removed. You don't need my word, do you? well the fact is there's no friendship when there's abuse.
You lost a lot of time in it. I really appreciate what you have posting but I want you to organize your ideas and make separate topics. Wait for the final decision about your sugestion. Make a thread about the guy which is doing PP.. Complaint processed, there's nothing about admins here and your suggestion was not approved or denied.

1. The LIHL was created with the !draw system in place. We took this thought from the HR games

Just saying, there's no rule about !draw in HR or normal games.. that's where the idea was born due to players !draw when someone gets desync