!Draw Poll LIHL

[supersexyy]

Final poll, will run for about 48 hours.

Ig0d has summarised my thoughts (ELO Penalty for disconnectors):

i voted for punishment and this is what id like seen done... First off the game is over if anyone leaves (it becomes unfair for the others at anypoint in the game) but people who played should be given a small amount of elo FROM the person who d/c'd... (so like 3-5 elo each)... if this person d/c's alot i think after a certain point we should have an auto-ban for heavy d/cing OR make it manditory for heavy d/cers to get gproxy...

so quick recap *Punish them but make everyone else gain elo and start a new game*

TLDR: 3v4 is a waste of time, disconnectors ruin games and they should pay the price.

On the flip side: Mickey's View (Abolish !draw)

What this means is: drawing when one discs in a team is fair. This is true, because the remaining team members get an unfair disadvantage because of the disconnect. But, when someone is losing, he can plug, and avoid the disc. He can also do it more subtle: Eldryan states there is no strategy when someone has a 3k ping, but there are ways to up your ping (for example, start your torrent client and start a heavy download). The point of the matter is: when one plays it smart, it is impossible to ever prove that he discs strategically. So, there are situations (and those situations will roughly be there 100% of the games for one of the teams) in which disconnecting is beneficial for both you and your team and thus drawing is not strategy proof. It is a good thing that you all point out that intentional disconnecting will lead to an unvouch, but I also think we all know we cannot prove when this is the case.

My point of avoiding this matter is: don't make drawing compulsory. In fact, it is undesirable to ever draw. Although in individual games you might have an unfair disadvantage, in the long run everyone is likely to have about the same amount of bad luck. However, if half of the games are drawed and half aren't, those percentages may vary in negative or positive ways for different players. The rule should be: when the game has started, it will be played out: of course unless all players agree to draw (but not because of etiquette). In other words, when we avoid drawing, the effect of disconnecting is ruled out. This does not go for the person who disconnects, of course, and I think it is a good thing, because disconnecting is discouraged in this way. After all, it is a form of game ruining. In any given case, disconnecting can not be advantageous for your team and therefore this way of handling the disconnect is strategy-proof.

[Diablo_]

Tough choice as I want both of them
Will think a bit about it.

[iightfyre]

I vote to punish DC'ers as I feel this will discourage instances of PP - I like the integrity of the game with the !draw rule personally.

[dweiler]

If you are doubting, you should vote for 'no draw rule', because if you play on, the disconnecter will get a loss anyway, so he will in a way be punished + you won't have any strategical disconnecting. Of course, if he disconnects often enough, he will still be banned or unvouched. Also, please bear this in mind:

Removing the draw rule completely may sound harsh, but it is not harsh at all. What it actually means is: you are not, before level 20, forced, under all circumstances and in all situations, to draw. In other words, if the remaining players feel like a draw is in place after someone disconnects, you can. What removing this rule does, is giving the autonomy and responsibility back to the players. Drawing won't be compulsory, but it is for the judgment of the players. So, don't think of this rule as "they are gonna take the draw away", but rather as "they are giving the draw option back to the players".

Just trying to win some souls last minute

EDIT: Also, in the 'no draw rule' disconnecters are not punished harshly. They are treated like a team who loses, and do not get an extra penalty (because this is not necessary). So if you disc every once in a while or think punishing innocent disconnects is unfair you might wanna vote for this option as well

[HateLose]

I voted to punish the person that d/c by giving them - elo. It sounds like the majority of the people that want to abolish draw is because they "think" everyone is "PP", which is not always the case. Even players with gproxy disconnects from time to time and I'm sure they're not "PP". To abolish draw is legitimately unfair for the players that are in the 3v4.


Edit: I retracted my comment to you Mickey. I thought you were accusing players of it, because you keep saying "Strategical Dropping". My apologizes if you weren't accusing anyone.

[BeepBoopBeep]

Only vouched player's should be voting.

[DonaldtheDuckie]

Why on earth is this an either or poll? do a both option, im all up for that and think a lot of others are, why limit our choice?

[dweiler]

Hatelose? I am not saying anyone is PPing? I am just saying you won't have PPing when you vote for my option. You can hold me 100% accountable if we take my option and someone PPs. But there is no need to create a negative vibe around me again, because what you are saying is simply untrue

Also, I created an example of my stand point, since there are still a lot of people who are in doubt of what I mean. I hope we don't have to discuss about it again, it is just to make clear what my standpoint is.

Imagine in a competition game, your favorite football team gets an unfair red card. Sure, this means an unfair advantage for your opponent during this game, for they have 1 player more without a good reason (compare with disconnect). However, in a competition everybody knows that all teams will have some of this bad luck in the end, some will get red cards, others will have illegal goals against them, other will score legal goals that are cancelled. The point is, that at the end of the competition everybody will have had his share of good and bad luck, and the score at the end of the competition is like it should be.

Now the ELO-loss proposal proposes for a particular kind of bad luck to cancel the game. It is very easy to see how this is susceptible for fraud (regardless if it happens right now). My solution is the same solution as they have in every other sport in the world, namely: play on! Sure, you have bad luck this time, but maybe you will have good luck next time, or the opponent will have bad luck. This is the most sensible and most balanced way of dealing with this kind of 'bad luck'. You can't imagine football games to be cancelled because an unfair goal has been counted as a real goal, can you? This is exactly the way I feel about cancelling/drawing a game after a disconnect.

[HateLose]

The point is, that at the end of the competition everybody will have had his share of good and bad luck, and the score at the end of the competition is like it should be.

My solution is the same solution as they have in every other sport in the world, namely: play on! Sure, you have bad luck this time, but maybe you will have good luck next time, or the opponent will have bad luck. This is the most sensible and most balanced way of dealing with this kind of 'bad luck'. You can't imagine football games to be cancelled because an unfair goal has been counted as a real goal, can you? This is exactly the way I feel about cancelling/drawing a game after a disconnect.

First of all, you are SOOO WRONG! It's not fair to everyone and not everyone drops, so it will not even out. I can name a handful of players I've played with that never disconnected or dropped vs players I know that have a problem disconnecting/dropping (including myself and no I don't PP). Your logic to this makes no sense. It depends on their internet connection and that's something that can't be controlled. Even with gproxy players have failed to reconnect (yes, even if they were winning they would drop). Now your solution would only make sense if the team is constantly the same (like in every other competitive game/league you are mentioning), however in LIHL the teams will always change and therefore it will not always be fair.

Example: Say we're playing LTD. I end up on the same team with you 7 out of the 10 games. My disconnect rate is 30%. I would have dropped more on your team than the other team. How is that fair in the end? You are at the disadvantage for me dropping more on your team, than on theirs.

[dweiler]

No I am not wrong First of all, if you disc a lot you will have a low ELO, so your allies will probably have stronger allies. Second of all, constant or fluid teams do not matter, since the chance you are in a team with someone IS random (but based on ELO). Third, disconnecting is not the only kind of bad luck you can have. Maybe I have bad luck with a disconnecter, but I have supertowers and the enemy bad towers. Or the enemy doesn't heal, or just has a shit game, or gets the wrong sends at the wrong moment, etcetera. In any case, because teams are designed to be perfectly balanced and you therefore have no control over who is in your team it is highly unlikely and nearly impossible you have a significant (as in the statistical term) higher amount of disconnects in your team than other players. Period.

In fact, if you take out 1 particular kind of bad luck it is more likely to have the difference between players with good and bad luck higher, just BECAUSE of what you mention. If a person has good luck exactly at your example he does not get it, and so any bad luck in any other part of the game will not be compensated. Your argumentation is therefore rather in favor of my solution

If we do what you suggest it would therefore be fair to scrap ALL the bad luck out of the game. So if 1 team gets elite archers, wolverines and LODs and the other team gets none we should draw. If one team doesn't leak round 1 with a komodo and the other does we must draw. If one team has a person who is too sleepy to concentrate well we must draw. I am making a caricature of your point, and I know this is not what you defend, but I think my point is clear.

And that you know some players who never disc, and some who often disc.. I also know players who never got an unfair red card and I know some who got multiple ones. I think there is nothing more to be said on that.

Also, to elaborate further on my competition comparison: it is the players that can deal the best with bad luck that are the true champions of the game. It is not true that 3v4 games are lost games, just like a red card in a game doesn't mean you lose. Again, an example: I think I have only played 1 game out in the LIHL where 1 person disconnected. This time it was even worse, let me state the facts: it was 3v3, so the disconnect (Feor) had an even greater influence. Feor was the top player of their team. The game went on for 20 minutes after that. We LOST the 3v2 (game = https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=1350756). As you can see, that game is from 18 days ago and I still remember it. Not because it was dull, boring and a waste of time, but because it was one of the most memorable and exciting games I played!

Don't be fooled by the doctrine that 3v4 is a waste of time, it can be epic and memorable! Don't go into negative thinking!

[HealByColor]

I vote abolish !draw because everyone dc now and again even with g-proxy or ent connect. Eventually this will even out.

[HateLose]

I will finish my post later, because I am currently at work, however what you guys are saying doesn't even out in the end.

Example: I have the lowest elo in LIHL and beep has the highest. Most likely we will always be on the same team, due to trying to balance it out (lowest will most likely always be with the highest). If I disconnect 30% of the time and I'm on the same teams with Beep 75% of the time, he will suffer more than anyone else, due to the no draw and me constantly getting disconnected. How does this even out in the end? He has to play more 3v4 games than other players.

[Feor]

I voted to punish DC , i feel it is a more fair option.

Not drawing would stand against everything i represented as hardcore gamer the past years ( ra2, CS , war3 , dota , wow ).
I don't like winning with an unfair advantage or losing because of one. I want clear wins, no excuses,no buts no ifs.

I am really wondering why people that are not vouched or playing anymore actually have the right to cast a vote. ( dweller and raizen in previous post, not sure if more people actually voted that shouldn't )

[iightfyre]

^ Well put Feor. I agree 100% with both points.

[eldryan]

funnily enough, I've never actually seen a problem with current "etiquette", however I am really annoyed by anyone who doesn't "draw" after a dc. I don't think anyone's been abusing it. Out of these 2, I prefer loss of ELO if only one person dcs, but if multiple ppl dc and bot crash, etc. no dc loss.