Legion TD

[Jabba41]

@retroward Thats something to hinder your enemy in using game mechanics which is a totally different thing.

[Hutzu]

If using AS on creeps that are attacking king is forbidden, then we acknowledge that using AS on creeps because of the stun-effect is indeed a bug-abuse.
You might say now, as you mentioned before, that it helps the solo-lane, but it is forbidden on all kings. But who says that AS on creeps is limited on solo-lane? Cross can use it to, always on that side its main army is fighting on. So no advantage gained here by allowing it, no balancing things out. The rules only forbid using AS on creeps on the opposite side of the army's spawn side in order to make creeps run to king faster. Even if you forbid using it on the other side of the army (even if the towers cleared first side and turned around to clear 2nd lane), it is still not changing a thing as two people can AS on first lane.

I see Jabba wants to change that for balance purposes. I don't know how the balance has shifted since the 2 years I haven't been playing this game, but before it wasn't that bad. Also both teams have the option of going cross/merge. If one team chooses (partially, as in only one side of a team) not to, then they have to deal with the consequences. Yes, this limits the options of a team to always go cross/merge, if the balance has shifted so much as you guys claim.

So there are 2 options and 1 of them needs to be implemented, because it is nonsense as it is right now.
1) Consider that usage of AS on creeps as it is and ban it for all. Pro: Everyone is treated equally. Contra: (may) limit strategies.
2) Consider that usage of AS on creeps as it is but allow it on solo-lanes. Pro: (may) balance things and provide more strategies. Contra: Treats people differetly.

As it is right now, it allows a clear bug-abuse for all, while not achieving any balance. The negatives of both options. That has to change, I doubt we will find anyone disagreeing with that.

[Uryn]

100% agree with vinktar and jabba, the antistucks in a double merge build are pretty much the same amount and the impact is much higher.

Its fun to try and hold waves with 1-2 antistucks which you underbuilt a little. Thats what makes mega fun compared to 1200+.
As I see it the most players who want this changed are 1200+ players and not mega players.
Imo there no reason to change this.

[KiwiLeKiller]

As I see it the most players who want this changed are 1200+ players and not mega players.
Imo there no reason to change this.

I play often on mega smurfing around. One of the main reason I don't do it more often is because of this annoying strategy that is antistucking you own lane to abuse of a game mechanic that never was made for this intention. I think it's really sad that some people are so limited skill-wise that they need to abuse that game mechanic to their own advantage.

On a previous version of the current LTD map, there was a bug that gave you 200 more income when you were casting egg sack's ability. I'm pretty sure if this map had been updated to the public bots, such abuse would have been banned. I honestly do not see how abusing of antistuck in order to freeze units is different in any way. But hey, to get 200 income in 1 single level shows you have a lot of skills in my opinion!

[Jabba41]

@kiwi Antistuck usage is a completly diffeerent thing. Everything except using it on stucked creeps is abuse technically, but it is what makes LTD mega to what it is and it brings more tactics and strategies into the game. By arguing "its a glitch" you wont come very far in this topic.

Another example: We did a rule about clogging as it was very overpowered back then, it got fixed and now isnt that strong anymore so we allow it again, even though its still glitching.

[HazarDous]

First, the "it's a glitch, should be banned, period" argument:

To be honest, any use of anti-stuck on a non-stuck creep is a glitch. We have specific anti stuck rules because the glitch has become a part of the game, and community did not want to ban it altogether.

Related / Source topic: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=95304


Unless it is game breaking, ENT's stance on Anti-Stuck being considered as a ban-able glitch is pretty loose and depends prominently on community's input, aka "do you want this or not".

As of now, my impression is that AS on waves' creeps do not have much of an impact, hence useless to craft new rules for this. A lot of time has passed since last suggestion, and I am unsure as to how players have adapted to 'exploiting' this mechanism. Has it become something that player a major role in holding vs not holding your lane ?

If the answer to the above is "no", then I would lean toward keeping it allowed.


Secondly,

i suggest that AS on creeps in cross and merged builds should be forbitten in total. That would be a change that actually balances the game a little more instead of forbitting it at all.

2) Consider that usage of AS on creeps as it is but allow it on solo-lanes. Pro: (may) balance things and provide more strategies.

While we are more loose on Anti-Stuck in MEGA, it was meant to reflect our community's will and its incorporation of AS as part of the game strategy. That's something I would call a "passive" approach to the AS issue that should have been addressed by the map developer to begin with. However, there is a difference between that and what you two are proposing. We will not start actively balancing a custom map through rule(s) interpretation.

I did not quite understand the difference between using this tactic on crosses vs solo lanes. Perhaps simply because crosses can use it twice as much as solo lanes..? Anyhow, if AS'ing creeps in crosses gives them major advantage in holding their lane, we will simply ban its use on every and any creeps and sends attacking towers.

So, to recapitulate, decision toward the initial suggestion (see below) will be based off two things.

Spoiler!

Suggestion: Anti-Stucking creeps and sends that are attacking your towers is ban-able

1) Impact on holding vs not holding (should not be major)
2) Overall community perception of this "tactic" (positive or negative)

Will make a decision in upcoming week(s) based on input received.

[bezdak]

Has it become something that player a major role in holding vs not holding your lane ?

Not unless you get a send. To better understand the usage of it - You can for example make sure you never leak lvl 4 with 420 engi (or even 390).

The two major problems are:
1. You can focus on blocking sends or a specific boss only. You can for example make a forward demon spawn to be suddenly back and you can also disrupt it's attack, same with bosses. If guardian as a delay on lvl 10 is bannable, AS effect can be twice as strong as guardian so I don't see any sense of it.
2. This:

Spoiler!

<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.
<username> has casted antistuck on creeps.

The whole game on every-single-fucking wave. This is my number one issue here.

[Uryn]

The impact on holding vs not holding is really small. Its not like bezdak said that you always can hold level 4 with 420 or even 390 engi value. You just get a slightly better chance to hold it with 420.
Also I have never seen players that spam antistuck the whole game and on all waves multiple times.

This kind of antistuck is one thing that makes mega fun compared to 1200+

[KiwiLeKiller]

I don't see the fun in abusing such feature. As Bezdak said, you can do it on creeps (demons, etc.), boss, and creeps. This makes it super overpowered and can make you hold when you should not have.

The simple fact that you can hold 4 with 390 value engi shows how op it is and that it has a huge impact on the game. A 390 engi should be dead, but with that kind of antistuck, he is not. It is an "uncounterable" strategy and should be banned.

It is one of the main reason I stopped smurfing on Mega, which I enjoyed.

[Uryn]

Well I have never see a 390 value engi hold 4 even with antistuck. Imo its not even close to overpowered compared to the other antistuck uses that are allowed on mega.

[elokiller]

Looks to me like only regular 1200+ players who are arguing about the antistuck rule.. while mega players dont want any rule changes. This alone should be enough to not change the rules about antistuck.
Additionally the impact of antistucking creeps is pretty low and its still RNG based if u hold with 420 engi value (its also impossible to hold 4 with 390 engi value, so dont know why you making up stuff?).

[KiwiLeKiller]

Looks to me like only regular 1200+ players who are arguing about the antistuck rule.. while mega players dont want any rule changes. This alone should be enough to not change the rules about antistuck.
Additionally the impact of antistucking creeps is pretty low and its still RNG based if u hold with 420 engi value (its also impossible to hold 4 with 390 engi value, so dont know why you making up stuff?).

It is one of the main reason I stopped smurfing on Mega, which I enjoyed.

It's not because you don't see me playing mega that I don't/didn't play there.

[DrChemba]

Many are saying AS on creeps/sends has a 'very small' impact , how about a extra wisp at level 1 or 2 ? Do you realise how this can snowball into something very big ?
As of now only a few people spam it and take advantage of it so you are tending towards ignoring it.
What if every mega game , all 8 players use AS 5 times each wave = 40 AS every wave . Would you still call it skill and keep it as it is ?

[Uryn]

Even if you would be able to get an extra wisp, what is not the case because you can't underbuild levels that hard just because of AS, compare the impact of this kind of AS to a double merge build which relies on antistucking all fighters after clearing 1 wave. Every player uses antistuck 2-4 times each wave as well. If done good you are unbreakable till level 31.
I think you overestimate the advantage of using antistuck on creeps a lot and if you want to be mega more like 1200+ then this is not the point where you should start with.

[KiwiLeKiller]

Merging is comparable to cross, and it's not the point of this thread.

I figured out recently that antistuck is even more op when used on bosses. It freezes them for about 2-3 seconds, and god knows that freezing a boss for 2-3 seconds is super abusive and can get you from a horrible spawn to a decent spawn in no time, or from a decent spawn to a perfect spawn.