Legion TD

[DrChemba]

@Uryn
So you think it has a low impact ? Or high impact ?
And in both cases it shouldn't be a problem for anyone if not allowed ?

It has a very low impact, and its 1 fun thing to do on mega because you can try to slightly underbuild levels. Mega always was a bot where you can abuse things that are possible on this map and must be banned on more competetive play. I just don't see a reason to limit things like this.

Underbuilding on intial levels is not "very low impact" and i'm sure people who know the game will agree to this

not denying that it can have a small impact.. but its definitely exaggerated in this thread here.

So you mean leaking 5-10 less creeps on starting levels is a small impact ?

@Elokiller have you tested it before claiming its not true? Since in the last AS thread i posted two replays showing that it is true.
I tested it on the new version, and it still happends to both demon/kraken and bosses. On the level 10 its easier to do it than lvl 20.

I didnt, but I think you should show us a replay or video to prove your point.

Stiff_maistar already said he posted replays , maybe @elokiller you should make some effort to prove your point ?

[KiwiLeKiller]

So, I tested some stuff in single player since it allows me to reproduce things multiple times, which is not possible in multiplayer, obviously. I had two replays but it doesn't seem like they were saved correctly, so I only have my last replay.

In the first replay, I tested level 1 to level 7, until I died (lol). I tested warrior send with AS and without AS, level 5 (no send) with AS and without AS, level 5 (with send) with AS and without AS and level 7 free hold with AS and without AS.

In the second replay (the one linked to this post), I started from level 7. I tested level 7 free hold again with AS and without AS, level 8 (no send) with AS and without AS, level 8 (with send) with AS and without AS and level 10 (furb + mass) with AS and without AS.

I always had a footmen yolo build, the same on the 2 lanes I tested. The conclusions resulting from those 2 games are the same. Here is the replay of the second game:

LastReplay.w3g

Antistuck test

(108.67 KiB) Downloaded 30 times

================================================================================

Level 7 free hold :
The lane I antistucked held better both times I tested, one of those times, I achieved to get free hold, which can have a very big impact on the game if you are able to pull the creeps away from the king for a few seconds, for example. Free holding with 4 guards (960 value) is kinda insane.

The first time I tested, I managed to change the focus of the creeps when one of my unit got very low hp, which is exactly what Bezdak said about the demon changing focus. Feel free to watch the replay if you doubt of it. I think this is what allowed me to free hold.

Changed creep's focus.png (478.32 KiB) Viewed 1085 times

On my second try, I splited the group of creeps in two, and one group came a little bit later than the rest, allowing me to hold better than the lane I didn't antistuck.

Slowed creeps.png (402.09 KiB) Viewed 1085 times

Level 8 vs send :
This is where I get most concerned about antistuck. I managed to do things that have a very very big impact on the game.

On my first try, I managed to get the commander stucked on the far end of the lane, so it would not attack and would give it's aura to very few creeps. On the screenshot I took, it is not very apparent, but I would encourage anyone to look at the replay, the commander behaves very strangely.

Stucked commander.png (321.41 KiB) Viewed 1085 times

On the second try, I managed to change the pathing of a group of creeps. Not only did they changed direction drastically, but they also stopped attacking and clogged due to their collision box.

Changed creep's pathing.png (642.09 KiB) Viewed 1085 times

Level 10 vs furb + mass :
As I said before, antistuck on bosses is very easy and very effective, due to their very big hitbox. I claimed I could transform an ok spawn into a good spawn, here is the proof of my claims. I do not remember if it is the first, or the second try, but the order doesn't change anything.

I tried a early antistuck and managed to stuck a boss far behind the others. Result : easy boss snipe with guards!

Stucked a boss behind.png (339.81 KiB) Viewed 1085 times

I also tried a late antistuck. I transformed what looked like an ok spawn into an actual good spawn.

Ok spawn.png (300.13 KiB) Viewed 1085 times

Good spawn.png (492.45 KiB) Viewed 1085 times

================================================================================

I got free hold on level 7, while the other lane, which I didn't antistuck, leaked 8 creeps. Level 7 spawns 30 creeps, so 8 creeps is more than 25% of level 7. Antistuck allowed me to hold over 25% of what I would have held! This is major!

I managed to change creep's focus and to isolate sends on level 8 and to change the spawn I got on level 10 from an ok spawn to a good spawn. Assuming you can do the same with demon, kraken, behemoth, etc. this can make the difference between a passive demon and an aggressive demon, hence making the difference between leaking and holding. This is also major!

My conclusions are : As far as I can see with the results I managed to obtain after one or two tries on some key levels, antistuck on creeps and sends can have a very big impact, hence the reason why it should be prohibited.

[Jabba41]

I just want to mention that in single player or 1v1 or what ever the as is much stronger as the normal lag in creeps is not as bad is an a 4v4. so your replays show what's known that you get a little better hold, that was never a topic to discuss here. but the way it got explained and shown by some here is way over the top and a lot weaker in the actual game.

and i would like to here comments from the supportive site on the arguments brought up. for example that other as usage are much more powerful as Spanish as the as of creeps thing but they're tolerated. please eleborate

[KiwiLeKiller]

I did -spawnall do all creeps, from the 8 possible lanes, were spawning. I reproduced the exact same thing that would happen in a normal game.

As for the other AS usage, I totally agree with what DrChemba said :

Stealing creeps or building cross has some skill + co-ordination + RISK
Antistuck on creeps/sends on the other hand is ZERO skill and NO negative effects or risk
Hence may have a huge and unfair impact on the game

Since cross is allowed on mega, I think it is good to allow merge lanes, and in such lanes it is obvious that you should allow antistuck. Such build also have some weakness. When building solo, if you want to catch leaks from your teammate, it is fine in my opinion to antistuck, since it has a risk factor, you will probably not be able to catch all leaks, and some will get to king, maybe even take a heal if it's big leak.

However, AS on creeps is OP and doesn't show any skill/weakness.

I think, AS on all creeps/sends must be prohibited unless they are actually stucked. AS on fighters can be allowed, in addition to the rules already existing.

[Jabba41]

tell me one weakness of a merge build compared to solo or cross.

[KiwiLeKiller]

I was talking cross/merge compared to solo. It can easily pull, or split. While a solo build can hardly split or pull when built correctly.

Solo and merge (being solo on the first levels) is, by far, stronger vs warrior send compared to cross, which is very very weak to warrior send.

[Jabba41]

but pulling or splitting isn't a real disadvantage in a merge build. it just something that makes the huge advantage they got a little lower because they always go mid. no matter what you do just with a little less units. so merge is extremely op yet it's allowed. it spams the same way in many levels even more (depends on the units that are build). take this in consideration. I agree with your "no risks" point compared to cross. but you don't have risks in catching leaks either only if you're silly but that's the same for antistuck on creeps

[DrChemba]

In merge/cross you steal gold from the opposite lane(Strategic)

And when you AS on creeps you steal gold from the AI/abuse the creep mechanic (is this a viable STRATEGY ?)

Also as much as i am against the use of AS on creeps
I also agree that making a new rule will have its flaws/complications

I have a suggestion if you want to stop it without making a new rule

Idk if it is possible but this might solve most of the problems (not all)

Disable Antistuck for the first 15 seconds of every wave

[DrChemba]

tell me one weakness of a merge build compared to solo or cross.

1 > In merge build , AS requires co ordination , most of the times even with 2 antistucks many fighters still reach portal and are not Antistucked to catch opposite lane leaks and hence may lose gold

2 > Your partner needs to build good delay

3 > There is a risk after antistuck the fighters wont reach portal/mid and get stuck in lane(can make you lose from a easy win game)

4 > Many fighters who use mana fail to Antistuck

5 > Co ordinarion on what to build + where to build . Space management


These and many more are weaknesses for which skill / knowledge is required in cross or merge

Now my question is how AS on creeps requires any skill or what is its weakness ?

[Jabba41]

@drchemba
1. You cant say that having to use antistuck in the right way is a weakness. You always need to use your stuff good, for solos too. You can fail in any build by making bad decisions.
2. Thats not a weakness, just part of the strategy
3. Thats again just when youre silly and fail the AS.
4. Thats not true
5. Thats not a weakness, goes for any build. Its more of an issue in cross due to splitting and not holding because of this.

We dont ban stuff because you dont need skill for it. You dont need skill to AS in order to catch leaks aswell. The point is that it brings viarity to the game and isnt overpowered compared to whats allowed.

[DrChemba]

@jabba41


1. You cant say that having to use antistuck in the right way is a weakness. You always need to use your stuff good, for solos too. You can fail in any build by making bad decisions.
>>>>making bad decisions in builds is not the point here , you lose gold if you fail to anti in merge but not in solo . so it is a weakness imo

2. Thats not a weakness, just part of the strategy
>>>>> bad delay can cost you gold loss again

3. Thats again just when youre silly and fail the AS.
>>>>> nope and this is pretty common when fighters get stuck in lane after antistuck


4. Thats not true
>>>>>> it is , hellraisors , greyamnes , hades in cross get stuck in the lane and donot go back many a times

5. Thats not a weakness, goes for any build. Its more of an issue in cross due to splitting and not holding because of this.
>>>>> if you consider 30 levels it is for sure a big weak point to manage space in merge too


imo you are considering pros playing only , when replying to those points
imo all those points are the weaknesses and you get good at them with experience

while there is no getting good or bad with AS on creeps , its just what it is

[AmnoN]

I am supporting the point around only using AS to catch leaks or on stuck creeps - end of story. Having all of these grey areas is silly and to be honest, makes a moderator's job unnecessarily difficult. People spend way too much time trying to skirt the rules or find loopholes and in my opinion, this is an easy one to fix.

Not sure why any other use is even considered - we are basically codifying existing enforcement of AS abuse since it is bannable to use it to hide units, pull from King, and have creeps/ sends skip a cross and go middle. I don't see how using it to delay creeps or any other similar use is any different, to be perfectly honest as the intention is to exploit the bug in AS.

I don't really understand how it requires this level of discussion to figure out since the policy around bugs is pretty clear across the board where they are generally bannable and this is really no different.

[aRt)Y]

Will be fixed by a map update, denied.