[ID] MagyarHUN@uswest.battle.net,lazyeye@uswest.battle.net, grunty@europe.battle.net, decliffor@uswest.battle.net

[Photon_man24]

Replay Link: https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=9863047
Game Name: [ENT] Island Defense #16
Your Warcraft III Username: Photon_man24
Violator's Warcraft III Username: MagyarHUN, grunty, decliffor, LazyEye
Violated Rule(s): votekick abuse
Time of Violation (in-game or replay): 110:08
Any further thoughts: They votekicked me claiming stalling right after I killed the fearie and took the base as feed.

[osug]

To start this right: Grunty is me and I'll show my opinion with time stomps.
If there are questions please ask me.

I'll just write the times we write to kick for stall:

Spoiler!

(36:49 / Allied) MagyarHUN: !votekick photo
(100:15 / Allied) grunty: !votekick photon
(106:26 / Allied) decliffor: !votekick photon
(107:58 / Allied) grunty: !votekick photon
(110:07 / Allied) decliffor: !votekick photon
(110:08 / Allied) MagyarHUN: !votekick photo

(33:30 / Allied) Shibumi: tbh this stall cba
(34:52 / All) MincedMeat: Shibumi has left the game voluntarily.
- shibumi seemed to be bored since titan kept mid pretty long time and left
- we didn't detoed his base; our fault.

around 42: titan breaks trolls base and kills troll.
- After this it is pretty clear he cannot win. (but we look further in this)
around 49: titan tries to siege fae base but gives up at 51
around 53: titan tries to siege murloc
around 55: titan nukes morph, which tried to rw murlocs base, after the nuke kill, titan leaves the base
around 57: he comes back and continue siege (for around 20 seconds, then he leaves again to get some more feed)
around 1h: he tries faerie, breaks 1 wall and leaves (takes another 20 second siege)
around 1h 3: tries murloc again
around 1h 10: murloc decide to deto his base and flee to rad
around 1h 14: titan tries to siege rad but gives up at 1h 16
around 1h 18: titan siege fae
- now the real show begins. he breaks 2 walls, goes back, regenerate, breaks 2 walls again. no coming further in base - he switching between regenerate and killing 2 walls (which gets permanent rewalled)
- he literally feeds on walls and buys tomes for more dmg (he started this siege with 229 base dmg; at 1h 41: 284
around 1h 47: he breaks FINALLY in! (29 minutes later!!!!)

after that magyar decide to votekick (partly he didnt vote yes/ partly green didnt before)

I dont think this is Votekickabuse in any forms! Please correct me if I am wrong.

In my opinion:
MagyarHUN and LazyEye should be banned for not voting
Photon_man24 should be banned for stalling rly hard!

[Panopticon]

If it takes a titan 20+ minutes to break a base or secure a builder kill, they can be kicked with 60% approval from surviving builders for stalling, and the kick wouldn't be considered abusive.

Now, if there were observers/dead builders voting in said kick, then there's a chance of it being abusive if there were more observers than alive players.

Was the kick in poor taste? Probably.

[Arcanium]

27:30 kills demo
37:00 Fed off leaving goblin base
44:00 Breaks troll base
1:00:00 He's destroyed walls, and a few towers but loses ankh.

Ok so let's just continue on since they missed the opportunity to votekick at 1:04:00 which would have been legal.

Most votekicks were legit, if they passed this would not have happened. However, at 1:49:35 he kills faerie, and then you votekick him after, which was illegal and everyone knows it.

So yes he was stalling, and you guys had votekicks that could have passed legally missing 1 vote at right times, but because of his Faerie kill and your missed chances....

List of voters:

Code: Select all

(110:07 / Allied) decliffor: !votekick photon
(110:09 / Allied) MagyarHUN: !yes
(110:43 / Allied) LazyEye: !yes


These three should be punished.

[osug]

I see your point Redmercedes and Apoth; thank you for your message.

still I have to point, that there is a huge gap between the kills. (At 0:55 he got morp kill; next kill on 1:49)
So I come to the conclude, that there is - in fact - a huge stalling problem in game, which I'm sure nobody can deny

Also I hope to notice, that we tried to votekick (1 was against/didn't vote at time, like you said)
After titan breaks the base the one who was against choose to votekick aswell
there is a problem now:
- either all others have to wait for another 30 minute siege or
- votekick (since we wanted to votekick before, only one did not vote at time)


I'm confused about the rules at the moment; might a mod or someone else can clarify this to me:
if a Titan isn't allowed to stall but he can't be votekicked and get a kill after some time makes this the amount of the stall and the right to votekick for stall (before the kill) irrelevant then?
So that a Titan might stall 30 minutes and get a kill; after this the right to votekick is kind of gone?
In this case a lucky Titan could 'wait' till people have to go and kill builders (he can't be blamed then anymore!)


Even then I don't think this brq is fair against all players listened.
Atleast me and decliffor tried to votekick several times but were hindered by other players - which in this case resulted in a maybe unfair votekick.
I'd like to hear @MagyarHUN and @lazyeye, why they didn't vote to be honest, this might would bring new informations
at this vote: (100:15 / Allied) grunty: !votekick photon
all voted yes, except @LazyEye
at this one: (106:26 / Allied) decliffor: !votekick photon
all voted yes, except @MagyarHUN
So MagyarHUN and LazyEye, they both, had the deciding vote


Also I feel the need to point out
If a titan siege 30 minutes, farming walls and buys tomes and breaks in and kills one
Titan can break any base, it is just a question of time
there are 2 raws, that define this
- first one: Builder base: even with max gold, there is a maximum of space in a builders base; so if he goes full ulti tower; he cant improve anymore
- second one: Titan: he can buy tomes unlimited, so he can counter any base, if: enough time
So if Titan gets a kill now and then (like every 20 minutes one kill); there is no way in winning without votekick

[Arcanium]

@osug

Thank you for your time and concern on this subject, you raise a good point.

Long post, I have put it all in the spoiler.

Spoiler!

I've had this all explained to me, which was why I confidently posted what I said before, and the following.

From what I know, the rule is if the Titan has not killed a builder for 20 minutes or more, he can be votekicked. Now, you had plenty of opportunities to do this and some were taken, the last few were unfortunately 1 vote off due to lack of attention or even late votes.

Current situation: Titan breaks the base, after the legal votekick expires. He also manages to kill Faerie with Magmide which unfortunately meant the votekick was no longer legal. Simply put, Yes, you now have to wait another 20 minutes. The votekick still happened (and to be honest I can understand why), and that's why the ban request was posted.

Speaking out what you said;
The game was beyond long enough. Large gaps between kills, with votekicks that should have passed given 10 more seconds,... No one can deny it is frustrating, you might agree to say this whole thing is insane. He had no kills for a full hour, and all of a sudden he gets a kill, and you are supposed to carry on as if the previous 1 hour stall meant nothing?

I, and probably many others, see the point. It seems ridiculous how it works, but you have to realize that you missed your chances to votekick which was very unfortunate, and carry on - You must be able to agree why this should be.
-Titan gains a minion, therefore raising his chances of winning.
-If the player owned a base, it is certainly feed, even further improving his chances of winning.

So by kicking him after he gained this advantage, you have ruined his game, rendered a possible win a definite loss, and you have also wasted his time as well. Remember, titan is the same as everyone else in the game. This particular one just has a lot more determination and patience than most others.

Also I feel the need to point out
If a titan siege 30 minutes, farming walls and buys tomes and breaks in and kills one
Titan can break any base, it is just a question of time
there are 2 raws, that define this
- first one: Builder base: even with max gold, there is a maximum of space in a builders base; so if he goes full ulti tower; he cant improve anymore
- second one: Titan: he can buy tomes unlimited, so he can counter any base, if: enough time
So if Titan gets a kill now and then (like every 20 minutes one kill); there is no way in winning without votekick

-Should a builder have enough gold to max out a base with gold towers, no titan will win against that.
-If titan were to kill a builder every 20 minutes, he would win anyway at around 2 hours by killing all builders.
-Or, he will eventually reach an unbreakable base, in which he may try to feed off walls and buy tomes, but 20 minutes will fly and you can votekick then.

Skipping what lies in the spoiler, this ban request should be approved. With that being said, should any of you appeal I am sure you will be excused as you have a very good reason to be.

[osug]

Thank you for your post @RedMercedes
I fully understand now.

Rule:
The titan can be kicked if he does not kill a builder in 20 minutes time, and if 50% of the builders alive agree to having the titan kicked.
Stalling is defined as titan and minions not being able to win or no chance of killing any builders of they just played really safe.
I'm don't think this rule can match at any situation.

Nevertheless, I'll accept any choice of the mods.

[Hash]

Now the appropriate time to vote-kick the titan for stalling would have been 1:15 since the last kill was at :55, if you guys had vote-kicked him any time from 1:15-1:49 I wouldn't have to ban all of you for vote-kick abuse, that would have been a totally accepted vote-kick for the titan. But considering the fact that you guys kicked him AFTER he kills the faerie without waiting 20 minutes until after the faerie died to vote-kick him, I am going to have to ban you guys for vote-kick abuse.

Since it seems you are a bit confused about the rules regarding stalling, I'll try to make it as clear as possible, and if you still don't understand feel free to message me about it. I'm going to post below what the ENT rules states about stalling.

"Intentionally stalling a lost game as titan and wasting everyone's time for more than 10 mins.
The titan can be kicked if he does not kill a builder in 20 minutes time upon the condition that 60% of the builders alive agree to having the titan kicked.
Stalling is defined as titan and minions not being able to win or having no chance of killing any builders."

Now this statement in itself can be a bit contradictory because a titan can actually have a chance to win, but if he does not get a kill for a time span of 20 mins, builders are allowed to vote-kick the titan for stalling. If you believe photon_man24 was stalling you are more than welcome to post a ban request on him. Considering all that

grunty@europe.battle.net banned 2 days for vote-kick abuse
magyarhun@uswest.battle.net banned 2 days for vote-kick abuse
decliffor@uswest.battle.net banned 3 days for starting the vote-kick abuse
lazyeye@uswest.battle.net banned 2 days for vote-kick abuse