1v1 LTD AS rules

[Karils]

Is there any reason that AS is completely banned from 1v1 LTD unless units are actually stuck?

I feel like it causes more harm than good, because if one person decides to use AS on 31 the other person is screwed.. I'd suggest making a clear rule such as the first person to AS on 31 gets banned, or just make it allowed completely to avoid the conflict in the first place.

Hit me with the reasons if there are some that I'm not thinking of/didn't realize.

Editing to expand on this after the fact:

Reasons AS rules should be changed for 1v1:

1. Many people might be unaware of the no antistuck in 1v1 rules because they are different from normal LTD rules.
2. Unlike most rule-breaking, it can be completely game changing in essentially two clicks, there's no "oh, won't happen again" if it goes on 31.
3. Should one person break the rule, there is no counter-play for the opposing player other than waiting, likely accepting a loss (of ELO as well), and then reporting after the fact.
4. As two people pointed out in this BRQ: viewtopic.php?f=24&p=468975#p468975 even without AS being used, the sending of blood orcs and ghouls essentially makes round 31 a dice roll anyway, so banning it didn't make things more competitive in the first place.

[bezdak]

Now that I think about it you're right... Should be less of a pain.

[Jabba41]

waiting for community input if AS on fighters should be allowed or not.

[Brandom]

Probably best thing that mods can do is adding -nm to default mode since as is not working in this mode on not stucked units anymore.

[point]

Probably best thing that mods can do is adding -nm to default mode since as is not working in this mode on not stucked units anymore.

totally support this idea

[HodoR_]

waiting for community input if AS on fighters should be allowed or not.

I'm so glad we're talking about this issue. It has to be the most frustrating thing in all my LTD gaming experience. Big thanks to @karils for bringing this up.

My opinion, three different options :

1. Completely allow AS
Pro : No more messing around on lvl 31, both team can AS rendering the BO / Ghoul strats useless, more or less.
Con : I can see people messing around with AS to gain time / stall creeps that run to king in one long line. Makes a huge difference, especially in 1v1s since you're on your own.

2. Keep it as it is, not allowed, but mention it in the bot auto messages and increase the ban duration. Some people rather get a 2 days ban than lose 20 elo (1v1 elo differentials are pretty big most of the time, and harder to increase your overall ELO)

3. Reduce BO / Ghouls movement speed on lvl 31 to match the level creeps, which is not that easy to do I think, would require intervention from @Broud3r

And please, please, status quo shouldn't be an option.

Cheers

[cornholio]

waiting for community input if AS on fighters should be allowed or not.

id like if AS not allowed and after start lvl30 till end of the game ghouls and bos cannot be send. If broud3r can change time to send demon on lvl 15 mb he can do it with ghouls and bos? It will be good not only for 1v1, even for 4v4.
-nm mode not good for me and some others good players coz since in 1v1 units faster and lvls harder so way better to build more down to dark green area and get better focus. With -nm mode to hold lines need even more ob than now.

[Stiff_Maistar]

I think the rule is just fine as it is. Its fair for both parties since non of them can use it and both can send bo/ghoul on lvl 31. If a player use as he can be banned for it.

Just a little side note, all the rules on the 1vs1 can give the player the win if he breaks them one time.
More than 120 value as delay (on a race level) = win
Juggle the king (to send more) = can be the win
Intentionally split towers to delay leaking on a wave you have sent = win

So its the same with every rule, If a person breaks them one time and say "oh, won't happen again" he will most likely win the game because of it

[Diablo_]

Sounds stupid to me to change rules just to even the ground vs rule breakers.
The rules are fine, if someone breaks them ban him. As Stiff said most rule breaks give a big advantage and could possibly only be "compensated" by the other player also breaking it.

Other than that I think allowing anti stuck would be a bit messed up cause the more and the better you use it the more advantages you get and it should not be the goal of 1vs1 to benefit the best anti stuck user.

[Stiff_Maistar]

One of the advantages you get if AS were allow on fighters at lvl 31 - Is that it can give you 5-10 seconds delay in the middle if you are able to time the antistuck correctly on one/two of your units.

[HodoR_]

@Stiff_Maistar
So its the same with every rule, If a person breaks them one time and say "oh, won't happen again" he will most likely win the game because of it

the 1v1 Antistuck rule is not well known, unless you search for specific 1v1 rules you won't be aware of that. It's kind of a reflex to AS your units when they split on 31

[Karils]

Sounds stupid to me to change rules just to even the ground vs rule breakers.
The rules are fine, if someone breaks them ban him. As Stiff said most rule breaks give a big advantage and could possibly only be "compensated" by the other player also breaking it.

Other than that I think allowing anti stuck would be a bit messed up cause the more and the better you use it the more advantages you get and it should not be the goal of 1vs1 to benefit the best anti stuck user.

The problem is that making it bannable doesn't stop people from doing it. Ruining a game with two clicks an hour into it because you don't know that rule is there is ridiculous for everyone involved. Those to clicks ruin a game for the other player, force them to make a BRQ if they want anything done, make mods sit through replays to see that he antistucked, and then ban him for anywhere from 3-5 days.

All for 2 clicks that we could just literally prevent from happening, or allow both players to utilize.

Furthermore, the other rules you mentioned aren't entirely exclusive to 1v1 LTD. Juggling is bannable in all forms of LTD, and you'd actually have to be trying to stall for that to be considered. Most people aren't going to make the conscious decision to break the rules when they antistuck in 1v1, that's the point.

[Jabba41]

@karils

1. Just because you rule get broken doesnt mean it need to be changed or removed. A lot of rule breaks can ruin the game.

2. You need 30 seconds to check if a report for AS on 31 is legit or not, so its not time consuming.


-nm mode would be a hard change as building towards middle is common practice in 1v1, especially as many games go 20+ you need the space. New mode would harm more then it would solve existing problems.


If the general conses is that Antistuck rules arent known very good in 1v1 we can add announcements on 1v1 bot + go harder on bans for such cases, if you felt such a violation was beeign "treated lightly". I for myself always went full 5 days for it as its a hard game changer.

[Karils]

@Jabba41

Your point 2 isn't completely accurate as unless they used AS multiple times it'd be an assumption they used it in an improper manner rather than to antistuck a unit which was actually stuck. Example would have been the most recent case of this I processed, the person did antistuck a couatl that was stuck on 13. Simply checking for antistuck use/coordinates isn't enough, unless i'm missing some other piece of information as to how you process this in 30 seconds.

As far as your point 1 goes, I agree, but only to an extent. Just like going harder on these offences won't lower the amount that they're broken, because people aren't normally using antistuck in 1v1 while knowing the consequences. I agree on potentially adding a warning on the bots about antistuck in 1v1, if antistuck rules stay as is, I recommend this highly.

No one has managed to post a coherent reason for the AS rules that are in place for 1v1 LTD thus far, that, I would like to point out. If the reason is in fact just to make BO and ghoul strats on 31 valid, why is antistucking mid not against the rules in normal LTD mega?

I'm more than happy to converse about this on discord or wherever you choose, I simply feel like this is all around a bad rule for the game mode.

[Stiff_Maistar]

Okey here is the reason.
The antistuck is supposed to only work on units that are stuck. To use it on anything else than units that are stuck is to exploit a glitch in the game. The AS is therefor not allowed in 1200+, 1vs1 and LIHL. The AS in mega has been allowed because of some reasons that i dont remember, but the AS has been restricted several times on that bot because there were several ways to abuse it.

Regarding checking for AS: The reporter is supposed to show when the accused player used the antistuck. He should provide all the information the mods need to ban a player. If not, you can ask the person when the illegal antistuck occurred and take it from there.