1v1 LTD AS rules

[Karils]

Okey here is the reason.
The antistuck is supposed to only work on units that are stuck. To use it on anything else than units that are stuck is to exploit a glitch in the game. The AS is therefor not allowed in 1200+, 1vs1 and LIHL. The AS in mega has been allowed because of some reasons that i dont remember, but the AS has been restricted several times on that bot because there were several ways to abuse it.

Regarding checking for AS: The reporter is supposed to show when the accused player used the antistuck. He should provide all the information the mods need to ban a player. If not, you can ask the person when the illegal antistuck occurred and take it from there.

According to Jabba, the reason which caused AS to be banned in 1v1 originally is no longer possible, so that just isn't true. From my understanding, AS is banned in 1200+ and LIHL because cross tactics aren't allowed, and you have to play your lane solo, AS allows you to take leaks from your team mates, but that isn't possible in 1v1 anyway.

[Brandom]

No one has managed to post a coherent reason for the AS rules that are in place for 1v1 LTD thus far, that, I would like to point out.

According to Jabba, the reason which caused AS to be banned in 1v1 originally is no longer possible, so that just isn't true. From my understanding, AS is banned in 1200+ and LIHL because cross tactics aren't allowed, and you have to play your lane solo, AS allows you to take leaks from your team mates, but that isn't possible in 1v1 anyway.

I
I
V

Sounds stupid to me to change rules just to even the ground vs rule breakers.
The rules are fine, if someone breaks them ban him. As Stiff said most rule breaks give a big advantage and could possibly only be "compensated" by the other player also breaking it.

Other than that I think allowing anti stuck would be a bit messed up cause the more and the better you use it the more advantages you get and it should not be the goal of 1vs1 to benefit the best anti stuck user.

Imo Diablo perfectly pointed out reasons why we need AS rules in 1v1. Rewarding players for antistucking single units in mid with better timeing than other player suck, it can give lots of time and even if enemy have built lumber and value adventage he still can lose against better as user which is bad.



Another thing would be as in early and midgame, would it be allowed there or no?
-If yes it would again be huge adventage for better antistuck users who can partly control enemy sends path.
-If no it would be probably confusing for some players. Why would be using antistuck sometimes viewed as bug exploiting and sometimes as viable tactical tool (lvl31)? why would splitting on race be bannable but antistucking 1 unit lvl31 banfree? U could ofc make more rules like "u are not allowed to antistuck single units unless u prevent splitting" but then it would be possible to ban someone for missclicking with his AS or antistucking not enough units (it is usually imposible to antistuck all units with one as on lvl 31 so it could be sometimes arguable if player just used his as badly or if he tried to delay wave) and I dont't think we need more complicated rules, especially in 1v1 where u can often meet new players who dont know any rules.





If -nm mode is a problem in 1v1 than mayby we need new mode wich would disable antistuck only. That would be probably much easier to do than changing ghouls and bo movement speed lvl31 or adding new cumbresome rules.

[Karils]

No one has managed to post a coherent reason for the AS rules that are in place for 1v1 LTD thus far, that, I would like to point out.

According to Jabba, the reason which caused AS to be banned in 1v1 originally is no longer possible, so that just isn't true. From my understanding, AS is banned in 1200+ and LIHL because cross tactics aren't allowed, and you have to play your lane solo, AS allows you to take leaks from your team mates, but that isn't possible in 1v1 anyway.

I
I
V

Sounds stupid to me to change rules just to even the ground vs rule breakers.
The rules are fine, if someone breaks them ban him. As Stiff said most rule breaks give a big advantage and could possibly only be "compensated" by the other player also breaking it.

Other than that I think allowing anti stuck would be a bit messed up cause the more and the better you use it the more advantages you get and it should not be the goal of 1vs1 to benefit the best anti stuck user.

Imo Diablo perfectly pointed out reasons why we need AS rules in 1v1. Rewarding players for antistucking single units in mid with better timeing than other player suck, it can give lots of time and even if enemy have built lumber and value adventage he still can lose against better as user which is bad.



Another thing would be as in early and midgame, would it be allowed there or no?
-If yes it would again be huge adventage for better antistuck users who can partly control enemy sends path.
-If no it would be probably confusing for some players. Why would be using antistuck sometimes viewed as bug exploiting and sometimes as viable tactical tool (lvl31)? why would splitting on race be bannable but antistucking 1 unit lvl31 banfree? U could ofc make more rules like "u are not allowed to antistuck single units unless u prevent splitting" but then it would be possible to ban someone for missclicking with his AS or antistucking not enough units (it is usually imposible to antistuck all units with one as on lvl 31 so it could be sometimes arguable if player just used his as badly or if he tried to delay wave) and I dont't think we need more complicated rules, especially in 1v1 where u can often meet new players who dont know any rules.





If -nm mode is a problem in 1v1 than mayby we need new mode wich would disable antistuck only. That would be probably much easier to do than changing ghouls and bo movement speed lvl31 or adding new cumbresome rules.

Controlling enemy sends path was the original reason for AS being banned, you cannot use AS in 1v1 in a way which would cause this anymore. There are still rules against high amounts of delay, and you can't use AS prior to 20s into the round according to Jabba (if i'm quoting him correctly). This isn't an issue anymore, so that doesn't stand. Go into -debug on LTD and try to recreate what you're saying without using more than 120g in delay, if you can I'll concede and say the rules should stay.

Yes, a player with more skill would be better at antistucking than a less skilled player, I don't see that as a problem. I don't think making the AS rules more obscure such as sometimes allowed, sometimes not is reasonable. I'm suggesting allowing it completely. AS in mid is valid strat in LTD Mega, I'm suggesting the same thing here.

I don't feel that you saying the better user will get an advantage is a reason one way or another, that's how competitive gameplay works. If you aren't good at antistucking units, get better at it, it isn't the fault of the game that you (i don't mean you literally) aren't good.

[Brandom]

[quote-"karils"]
I don't feel that you saying the better user will get an advantage is a reason one way or another, that's how competitive gameplay works. If you aren't good at antistucking units, get better at it, it isn't the fault of the game that you (i don't mean you literally) aren't good.[/quote]
It is bad because antistuck shouldn't be part of the gameplay, it is tool to antistuck units that are stuck and that is the only reason why it was implemented and it would not be here if units didnt actually get stuck.
Legion TD should reward game knowledge, building skill and decision making, not exploiting tools implemented for reaons other than gameplay. Rewarding better AS user is just like rewarding better maphack user.


I just don't get it, AS depenalization doesn't make sense for me, breaking almost any other rule looks in my eyes much better than using AS since these things at least always were part of the game
-if using AS isn't exploiting game mechanic how building delay bigger than 120 value is?
-if using AS isn't exploiting game mechanic how splitting units on race lvl is?
-if using AS isn't exploiting game mechanic how king juggling is?


Lets see what was your reasoning in first post

Reasons AS rules should be changed for 1v1:

1. Many people might be unaware of the no antistuck in 1v1 rules because they are different from normal LTD rules.

-Do not build over 120 value of delay towers.
-Do not intentionally split towers to delay leaking on a level you have sent.
I am 100% sure that most of people who dont know about AS rule dont know about these rules too because of same reasons and yet I dont see anyone trying to remove these rules

2. Unlike most rule-breaking, it can be completely game changing in essentially two clicks, there's no "oh, won't happen again" if it goes on 31.

-Do not intentionally split towers to delay leaking on a level you have sent.
splitting towers is literally 2 clicks, building hydra, tot or magna delay is 3 clicks and it is even worse sometimes because u dont know if other player cheat unless u watch replay

3. Should one person break the rule, there is no counter-play for the opposing player other than waiting, likely accepting a loss (of ELO as well), and then reporting after the fact.

-well you can say same thing obut almost any other rule, u cant counter splitting on race lvl or building over 120 value delay in even game(u can have big value and just hold enemy send but u can do same thing lvl 31 with 2-3k value more and saved lumber for 32,33), u cant do anything if player leak 19 with full king after your 18 send and hard juggle to send hard 20

4. As two people pointed out in this BRQ: viewtopic.php?f=24&p=468975#p468975 even without AS being used, the sending of blood orcs and ghouls essentially makes round 31 a dice roll anyway, so banning it didn't make things more competitive in the first place.

that is a reason to change game mechanics not to allow exploiting, if lvl31 even is a problem.

I dont see reason to keep other rules if we allow using AS.






and finally what are adventages of allowing exploiting over banning for as or disabling as with new mode in 1v1?

[HodoR_]

@Karils
Hello, have you been able to bring that up to the rest of the staff?

[Karils]

@Karils
Hello, have you been able to bring that up to the rest of the staff?

I'll ask Jabba again, but we never reached a solid conclusion, no. It seemed the options were leaning towards -nm or leave as is.

[Jabba41]

1. Many people might be unaware of the no antistuck in 1v1 rules because they are different from normal LTD rules.
2. Unlike most rule-breaking, it can be completely game changing in essentially two clicks, there's no "oh, won't happen again" if it goes on 31.
3. Should one person break the rule, there is no counter-play for the opposing player other than waiting, likely accepting a loss (of ELO as well), and then reporting after the fact.
4. As two people pointed out in this BRQ: viewtopic.php?f=24&p=468975#p468975 even without AS being used, the sending of blood orcs and ghouls essentially makes round 31 a dice roll anyway, so banning it didn't make things more competitive in the first place.

Using the -nm mode as default for 1v1 LTD would reduce the possibilities in the players way to play so it should be a last step.


The lack of knowledge about the rule is the main issue here. Many people dont report it either, but thats not an issue on the rules we have.

So this suggestion is denied regarding a change in the rules.
A bot announcement will be implemented starting saturday to spread the rule.

Thanks for suggesting and pointing out the "awarness issue".

Processing

[Jabba41]

Done. Archieving