Just a few suggestions...

[Anda]

I never said the way appeals were handled were perfect in the past , i just say everyone deserves a right to voice his opinion if he is judged and feels a need to say something.there are good arguments for appeals and against, i tend to support appels. How we deal with it is the responsibility of the mods, and in the final result it is our time that is wasted by it
Gone a bit offtopic, i havd my role in this aswell. Move back to Jamos points pls

[bezdak]

Move back to Jamos points pls

? We're discussing one of his points, specifically the second suggestion, how is this off topic?

everyone deserves a right to voice his opinion if he is judged

He can do this on reports also if he has the need to explain himself, this has nothing to do with appeals imo.

[Anda]

i just ment move back to the other topics aswell ^^ sry if i communicated a bit out of order here. I was thinking about the case i had today with mudman.

viewtopic.php?f=85&p=471124#p471124

I did not find a 100 % clear rule to base my judgement on, so i had to work to the best of my knowledge. in these cases , if i feel the violator has a realistic point to not be aware of a wrong doing by our rule set, i think an appeal is a good thing. For a lot of appeal topics i agree, they are unnecessary and we will discuss them in the comming days in the mod section. Sry if i confused you a bit, i was still caught in my thought process here.

[Im_Halp]

@snowblind

he should know not to encourage kiwi to break the rules. its common sense. As far as the lying about kiwi's statements idk how thats even a thing lol its bad manners yea but so wht if he lied i dont c a big issue with that tbh.

[Anda]

WE did not not only ban him for telling someone to break the rules, but nvm this is leading off topic. I didnt want to discuss the judgement here, but rather state that sometimes there is not a 100 % clear case and for these cases i like an apply option. I agree this might be a slight minority of appeals, but it still had to be pointed out.

[bezdak]

sometimes there is not a 100 % clear case and for these cases i like an apply option

This is exactly why there should be only a second opinion option. Once I get the ban, I should sit it out. If it's Not 100% like you say, caused by badly formulated rules or something, other mods might see it in another way. however once I get the ban, in like 95% cases I deserve it and there is simply no reason to have it shortened, when I'm supposed to 100% know and understand the rules right after I get vouched.

[Anda]

dont have anything constructive to add, maybe just a difference in opinion, i think there are valid points in both reasonings.

[Vendeta]

I understand that no-appeal suggestion. But i am more against it. As @snowblind already told, there are some cases not 100% clear, thats most important, by many factors.

Every person here should have a option to appeal. Ent is made for people to have fun playing games, make some new friends, its not made to become a dictatorship lol. Even in court u have a option to appeal, and u want to take it out from a game

LIHL is small league, and there shouldnt be plenty reports, since its considered every player should know rules well. But when it comes to reports, mods ban someone, that player appeals, its up to moderators if they will review again, talk with that person, look at his side of story, or even just let him play the game if he is desperate Its all up to LIHL mods, and it should stay that way.

You need to remember something, this is just a game, and we all came here just to have fun.

Peace !

[Im_Halp]

We also came here with an understanding of sportsmanship; people breaking the rules, that we would not know of without investigating, ruins the "fun". Especially if you end up losing a game because of it. Where does the "fun" occur when you have people constantly taking advantage of the rules in order to win games? I'm pretty sure most of the league, if not all (i know that haza enjoys losing), would agree losing is not "fun"- especially in the manner which i have described.

As bezdak previously stated:

This is exactly why there should be only a second opinion option.

This is their appeal, imo, this is all there should be.

[Meshtar]

This thread has gone long enough without an essay!
As much as I agree with Anda and Vendeta that situation isn't always 100% clear and that there are some mitigating factors etc, I think all that can be said in report topic and if its not satisfactory for the banned player he can ask for a second opinion. I think we can all agree that appeals right now don't serve as a way to explain yourself or add more information or to argue your case but as a place where you simply say " I am sorry I won't do it again" or similar bs and ban gets lifted /reduced not because he showed or proved anything but because he simply made a one sentence appeal.
As far as I am concerned you can keep the appeals, just make them about arguing the case, bringing more information and similar stuff not about bs one line apologies that most mod approve more or less.
If they are sorry they can say it to their therapist!

[Vendeta]

But sometimes mods just talk it over with players in PM, happened to me almost on every appeal, its eassier to, for example, chat in discord, talk it over and get a solution, than in comments on forum.

[bezdak]

But sometimes mods just talk it over with players in PM, happened to me almost on every appeal, its eassier to, for example, chat in discord, talk it over and get a solution, than in comments on forum.

As I've said, once someone gets a ban, he should serve the full length of it. These "2 hours long talks over Discord" feel pretty broken - it's pretty much the same stuff as an appeal, just with no transparency at all.

[Vendeta]

But sometimes mods just talk it over with players in PM, happened to me almost on every appeal, its eassier to, for example, chat in discord, talk it over and get a solution, than in comments on forum.

As I've said, once someone gets a ban, he should serve the full length of it. These "2 hours long talks over Discord" feel pretty broken - it's pretty much the same stuff as an appeal, just with no transparency at all.

I strongly dissagre. U have different view on that cuz u prolly get texted multiple times a day from random mega players, or 1200 for appeals. In lihl reports/ban are very rare. Mostly of them are DC.

Anyone can make 1 mistake, maybe by accident, maybe someone fool them, maybe on purpose, people rage a lot, then do it in that "FUCK IT" mood, but then when they calm down, they regret it, because we are all here cuz we love playing this game.

My point is if someone spends 2 hours in talking about mistake he made, and also admit that same mistake, and obviusly regret it, why not reduce ban? Thats just nonsense.

Im not talking about repeating bans, ofc, just to be clear. Repeated mistakes are ofc needed to be dealt with instatly, and without any conversation about it.

[dweiler]

Although I agree we should take care with appeals, removing appeals is really a solution to a non-existing problem. In the last 3 months, there have been 7 appeals, of which 1 posted 2 appeals (Fate, in which the 2nd was a separate case because it was mainly something between him and n1ll3). It is VERY rare that we have to unvouch someone again for the same thing after they appealed, so it is not like people think 'oh they granted me an appeal, so I will do it again'.

Our goal with unvouches is not to make someone not play for a while, but to make them stick to the rules. I don't see any advantage in not engaging in conversation, be very strict and harsh, when working together with them, when they say in public they won't do it again, are willing to apologize, and to acknowledge the rules, gets great results.

[Im_Halp]

@mickeythemousie if ur goal is to make them stick to the rules then make them serve the full duration for the rule they broke.