I'd like another mods opinion.

[django_2chainz]

Your Warcraft III username: Rick_C-137
Realm/Gateway: US
Why are you banned: Game ruining?
Why you should be unbanned: Why in the hell would I be banned for this? A teammate ignored me on round 1 for literally no reason, and I'm accused of game ruining on 15 due to them not communicating with me. Not one of them asked what I thought a good send was, 15 was a good send, 14 was not. My game was ruined by this individual who muted me on ROUND 1. Not sure how this stuff works, I've played this game for years and haven't once ruined a game. This is unacceptable to be banned for that garbage.

Here's the link to the original ban.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=120466

I did nothing toxic until that idiot muted me, and even then I did not game ruin. Either ban the other guy as well or unban me please.

Cheers.

[django_2chainz]

I just saw that there is another forum for this, can it get moved to there please >.>

[Karils]

That doesn't change that you chose not to send 14 even after knowing their choice. You sending alone 15 certainly isn't a better idea than everyone on 14. You can debate the choice of 14 all you want, but the option was sending 14 as a team, or sending alone on 15 and you did the latter.

[Zeratul]

Well this case is what i call somewhat controversial, and i gotta say that altho the 'team' (2 decided, 1 followed) sent, i find it rather stupid to blame it on 1, instead of the whole miscommunication:

Code: Select all

(03:16 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: !ignore rick

Teal ignores purple at this point

Code: Select all

(12:13 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: !ignore rolla

Teal ignores red

Code: Select all

(19:27 / Allied) GetRektStacker: !ignore rick

Blue ignores purple

So at this point you got

Red who can communicate with purple and blue
Teal who can only communicate with blue
Blue who can communicate with red and teal
Purple who can only talk to red

So lets go to the sending part:

Code: Select all

(26:24 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: 13 14?
(26:26 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: when
(26:27 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: lol
(26:34 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: 15 we wont survive
(26:43 / Allied) GetRektStacker: 13?
(26:47 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: ok
(26:55 / Allied) GetRektStacker: or 14
(26:57 / Allied) GetRektStacker: hmm
(27:16 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: 14 is ok too
(27:20 / Allied) Rick_C-137: we're going 15 right?
(27:20 / Allied) GetRektStacker: bether y
(27:23 / Allied) GetRektStacker: for lumb
(27:32 / Allied) GetRektStacker: they might try aswell tho
(27:35 / Allied) GetRektStacker: but whatever
(27:36 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: yep
(27:37 / Allied) GetRektStacker: -king

So purple doens't learn about anything at all (since the 2 of them ignored him, meaning he coulnd't read anything), and as far as red goes, he could only read what blue wrote, which gives no context:

(26:43 / Allied) GetRektStacker: 13?
(26:55 / Allied) GetRektStacker: or 14
(26:57 / Allied) GetRektStacker: hmm
(27:20 / Allied) GetRektStacker: bether y
(27:23 / Allied) GetRektStacker: for lumb
(27:32 / Allied) GetRektStacker: they might try aswell tho
(27:35 / Allied) GetRektStacker: but whatever
(27:37 / Allied) GetRektStacker: -king

So basically purple coulnd't follow any send (besides what he sees being sent), and red is only able to see a possible 13 or 14 call (none confirmed), neither did teal or blue attempt to communicate it properly -> They could have asked red (or even unignored purple to inform him about the send)

To me, 2 players that go on !ignore spree, make their own sends/calls and make a brq report are simply wrong - If you dont even make an attempt of communicating sends or working as a team, you got no right to decide that someone refuses to send: If they had informed him, or even asked red to inform about it, i had no problem agreeing that the ban is correct; In this specific case, i cant agree at all.

If he does refuse to send 14? We can agree so, as 3 sent 14 (2 of them which had purple ignored, and 1 that dind't care but followed - hardly consider an agreement to the send, but w/e).

If you can blame it on purple, and not the other 2 for ignoring and refusing to communicate/work as a team? No you cant.

[Karils]

@zeratul the miscommunication isn't what led me to my decision. Read my above post and see if you agree or not. Regardless of whether he would have preferred 14 or 15, if the team sends 14 and you intentionally don't send simply because of the following:

(30:06 / Allied) Rick_C-137: I'm not sending now
(30:08 / Allied) Rick_C-137: I'm sending 15
(30:15 / Allied) rollaVone: just send
(30:18 / Allied) Rick_C-137: no
(30:20 / Allied) rollaVone: who cares what happens
(30:22 / Allied) Rick_C-137: I wasn't consulted.

This wasn't miscommunication, it was blatant TK/refusal to send. Sending alone 15 is almost never going to be better than sending with the rest of your team on a different round. Choosing to not send out of spite isn't a team play.

[Zeratul]

So following your logic, if purple sent 13 and red followed (and blue/teal refused to send), they could report blue/teal for not sending, cuz half team (50%) sent, even without making an attempt to communicate? cause thats pretty much what you're saying by your post(s) above.

Basically it doens't matter if you make an attempt to communicate sends or not - If half of the team sends (even without communication, as it was in this case), you have the power to determine who refuses to send or not.

Note: I'm not saying what purple did in this game was acceptable either, but you cant blame 1 without blaming the other: The other 2 just pretty much decided whatever they want, while ignoring people (causing miscommunication, and preventing the team communication), and never made an effort to communicate the sends.

As far as the rule goes, i always believed this rule to be considered when the player(s) in question refuse to send/cooperate with the team (meaning that there's an effort to communicate/cooperate with X player, and he refuses to send, for whatever reason) -> In this case you got 2 players ignoring the rest of the team, and making their own calls, and you cant exactly use red as a decision factor, because due to this ignore/miscommunication, what blue/teal did is called a forced send (and in that case, i strongly suggest for django to post the brq on these 2).

[Karils]

It was 3/4, not 1/2 and they didn't just randomly do so. I'm not sure how you put 1/2 when it was all three of them, but purple refused. Red said he didn't care, and told purple to send. Purple didn't send.

I'm not saying that ignoring your team is a good idea, or that they weren't partially at fault, but they didn't play spiteful of the other player, they simply chose when to send differently than he would have. Again, what was the excuse for not sending when 3/4 of his team had sent?

[django_2chainz]

So basically, any level I decide to send, I can just ignore my teammates and then send and it is their fault for game ruining if they don't send? Is that what this game is? I don't care if the other people are banned, I don't go to lengths to request bans in this game. It seems like backwards ass logic that I get banned from this scenario.

[Zeratul]

So you got 2 players stating they weren't consulted at all (if you read the same chat as i did), and you consider this an "acceptable" case, cause red decided to follow?

Again by processing this brq with a ban, you're just pretty much stating that as long as 3 out of 4 send together, it doens't matter if theres communication or not (specially when they made no effort whatsoever, to communicate the sends + even ignored half team) - what matters is that people send and so that defines what is a ban or not.

Meaning i can start playing with 2 friends, we make the calls and if the 1 refuses to send (even if hes not consulted or informed), he gets reported and banned cause he refused to send - Thats how you're proving this.

I might be coming out a bit aggressive, but this has to be one the most absurd explanations ive heard for a case where the OP had no reason to post a brq in the first place: He ignores half of his team, makes no effort to communicate or inform his team of sending, and he gets the ban request approved cause one decided to follow the ignoring spree team.

[Karils]

By my understanding, if you actually got two other players with you that were friends and sent together, if the other refused, yes that would be refusing to play as a team/solo sending. That's not to say you couldn't be TK in your choices, but the only reason he didn't send was out of spite. I'll simply ask another mod to re-review considering our opposing thoughts.

[Zeratul]

Again, how can one consider that as refusal to send/cooperate when he doens't get consulted or informed at all? LTD is a teamgame, meaning that you work/send/play as a team - You cant simply ignore your team, make your own calls and base the decision on who sent or not.

I can understand your point of view on the fact purple dind't send (i do agree that it isn't acceptable as well), but to ban him for this, when there was no communication, effort from the brq poster (they ignored him, and red as well - and never attempted to communicate the send, they simply sent, and either red/purple follows, or they face a ban request, possibly ending in a ban, as it happened - in this case, purple was unlucky cuz red followed, or else it would be 2/4 instead of 3/4).

If blue/teal had told red they were sending 14 and red said "ok", or just "ill follow what you call" or w/e - i could agree with the purple ban

If they had consulted with red, and asked red to inform purple of the send on 14 - and purple still refused to send - i'd also agree with you

However that wasn't the case - You got a forced send by blue/teal, in which red simply dind't care and followed (that doens't mean he accepted the send, was informed/consulted at all) - Simply red decided to follow, without any possibility to do otherwise.

And you even have purple asking on chat if they should send on 15 ... Literally the only person attempting to communicate, or ask, is the one that got banned, smh

[Karils]

I had a conversation about this BRQ on discord with other ENT staff. The consensus was that while we agreed purple (django) broke a rule in choosing to not send despite the other three team members sending units, it was questionable that the players used the ignore feature in the first place.

@django_2chainz

I'll simply state that things like:

(13:17 / Allied) Rick_C-137: I'm going to do everything in my power to fuck with teal =)

and choosing to not send out of spite, are not team cooperation/constructive play. Do you agree with this post at the very least?

I'll also tag @zeratul to see if he agrees with this post.

[django_2chainz]

Yet I did nothing to fuck with his game, at all. He fucked with my game a lot worse than I to his. Just because I'm held hostage to send doesn't seem like a very good reason to ban someone.

If that is the case, from now on I'll just ignore 2 people and do whatever I want and then when people don't follow what I do, I'll have them banned?

You can just ignore your team on round one and not worry about having anything go wrong in your direction?

Pretty slippery slope you're going down.

This hardly feels like moderation. Just saying.

[Karils]

Yet I did nothing to fuck with his game, at all. He fucked with my game a lot worse than I to his. Just because I'm held hostage to send doesn't seem like a very good reason to ban someone.

If that is the case, from now on I'll just ignore 2 people and do whatever I want and then when people don't follow what I do, I'll have them banned?

You can just ignore your team on round one and not worry about having anything go wrong in your direction?

Pretty slippery slope you're going down.

This hardly feels like moderation. Just saying.

I stated above that his ignore usage wasn't necessary, I already agreed with that. Do you actually not agree that you broke a rule though? I assumed by you saying to ban both of you or neither is you accepting that you did something wrong.

[Zeratul]

it was questionable that the players used the ignore feature in the first place.

Questionable?

(02:24 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: thanks red
(02:30 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: for killing everything
(02:47 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: no more holder
(02:57 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: !lms rolla
(02:58 / Allied) rollaVone: what do u mean lol
(03:01 / Allied) Rick_C-137: lol? because you didn't get extra gold on round 1?
(03:03 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: 2 ygg
(03:06 / Allied) rollaVone: bro
(03:09 / Allied) Rick_C-137: why are you whining so much? damn
(03:10 / Allied) rollaVone: u can 4 ygg ez
(03:13 / Allied) rollaVone: lmao
(03:16 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: !ignore rick
(03:30 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: first one is muted

Code: Select all

(11:47 / Allied) Rick_C-137: lol teal muted me?
(11:53 / Allied) Rick_C-137: what a faggot.
(11:56 / Allied) Rick_C-137: knew it
(12:00 / Allied) rollaVone: he did rnd 1 lmao
(12:13 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: !ignore rolla
(12:19 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: 2nd one muted

(19:23 / Allied) GetRektStacker: not talking to u purp
(19:27 / Allied) GetRektStacker: !ignore rick

Care to clarify how is this even "questionable"? Again you're putting purple actions in check, completely disregarding (and ignoring) the fact that 2 players ignored half team, dind't communicate or inform the remaining players about a possible send, and just went with a ban on the one reported - Once again, it doens't matter if you play in team, communicate sends, or inform/consult with your team: From all this so far, you're basically saying that as long as 3/4 send, the 4th gets banned, if he refuses to send (and gets reported)

(27:20 / Allied) Rick_C-137: we're going 15 right?
(27:20 / Allied) GetRektStacker: bether y
(27:23 / Allied) GetRektStacker: for lumb
(27:32 / Allied) GetRektStacker: they might try aswell tho
(27:35 / Allied) GetRektStacker: but whatever
(27:36 / Allied) YouKnowMehBoii: yep
(27:37 / Allied) GetRektStacker: -king
(27:37 / Allied) Rick_C-137: okay, well I'm sending 15

Now tell me - Purple asks for a 15 send, teal/blue don't reply cuz they both ignored him, even red doens't reply to purple, so purple is forced to follow the send based on what he sees, and cant decide anything (cause he cant even ask his team) - and after your discussion with the staff, you still find that acceptable? Good to know, i know how im gonna start playing ltd from now on.

PS: We had already defined that purple sending wasn't acceptable, so i cant understand why you're going back to the same old point - If you wanna go with "now that you know what you did is wrong, pls dont do that again, unbanned (or post rules, and unbanned after)" - that could have been done in the brq with a simple "@django next time, despite the fact your team ignored you for no reason, please try to communicate/follow the team sends" -> Still pretty stupid imo, cause you're blaming 1 player who cant decide or do anything besides following what he can see, since 2 ignored him for no reason, and the other (red) doens't reply when purple asks for a 15 send.

This to me is a pretty bad ban request result: You are considering that teal/blue actions of sending 14 without telling anyone is completely correct, and purple asking to send 15 (and refusing to send 14) is wrong -> Legion TD is a team game, meaning that you play/talk/communicate/inform your team - If the team is somehow flaming, or doing something to justify an ignore, just use !ignore/!unignore to inform your team/consult the sends (and report them after the game ends); By banning purple, you're just approving teal/blue's ignore behaviour, and stating that ignoring + forcing send is approved by ENT rules (as long as 3/4 sends - doens't matter if no1 communicates, informs, consults or anything: what matters is that 3/4 sent, meaning they have the numbers).