Island Defense: New Rule discussion

[osug]

Hi

Today I'd like to discuss a new Island Defense rule regarding leaving as builder.
I experienced many games to be ruined by too many leavers. That said, I know it is okay to leave as Titan once there are 3 leavers/obs.
Nevertheless there are games where even two leavers hurt the game or all people leave resulting in a remake.

It is no fun to restart a game when you get a good run as Titan just because builders want to win and leave if they loose or can't gold.
Nor it is fun to restart a match because people didn't get satyr or nature or any other builder and don't want to play it out like it is meant to be.


Reason why people are leaving (in my experience):
-Titan gets early kill
-a owner of base died
-new people in game
-builders get no gold
-builder don't get the race they wanted (ex. in random or by pick)
-builders don't like the voted mode (ar, up, etc)
-some private reasons (which could be told in All-chat)
-> in many times one leaver results in a chain of leaving


Here are some good reasons for this new rule:
-fairness: Titan is not allowed to leave before 10, why should builders be allowed to leave?
-gameruiner (permanent leavers at start) could beeing banned - this could resulting in a fairly fluent game
-honour the Titans (why would one possibly want to play Titan when all leave once he is about to win or get his feed)
-making the mode-vote binding to all (It is not to be tolerate that the teamvoted mode is a reason to leave!)


There are many ways to implement that kind of rule
-all kind of leaving as builder
-leaving as builder before 10
-leaving as builder in more than 3 games
-leaving as builder after a kill or after spawn

I might add that the second option also could include the fourth one.


Let me know if there are any questions.
Regards
osug

[dlNO]

ima take it slow and first ask, why this? "I know it is okay to leave as Titan once there are 3 leavers/obs."

[vex193]

Can there also be a rule for being obs 3 games in a row. because I know there is some individuals that do that consistently?

[osug]

@dlNO
what do you want to point out exactly?

-why i pointed out the rule about leaving as titan if 3+obs?
or
-why we don't discuss whether it is okay to leave as Titan if 3 people are obs?

[KamiKadse]

How about we enable Elo again? No one would leave then :p

[Remixer]

-Titan gets early kill
Definitely happens from time to time, and I don't see how some one could defend leaving for 1 early kill. I'd say if Titan gets 3 minions at 5 minutes, it's pretty GG for builders like Satyr. One minion I'd say it's not okay to leave.

-a owner of base died
If this happens late game, I don't see any reason why some one could not leave. If the reality is that there's just no way to hold after a base falls, might just as well speed up the progress and surrender.

-new people in game
Not a reason to leave. If people do this, new people will never learn. Instead, try to perform so well that you can compensate for the newbs.

-builders get no gold
No reason to leave. If Titan can prevent golding, he's playing good and builders must find way to survive in the situation.

-builder don't get the race they wanted (ex. in random or by pick)
This is the reason public games should rarely go to -ar mode, as this tends to happen. If you, yourself, pick random you should not be allowed to leave because you don't like that builder. Random is not a way to get +100 extra hp, or leaving till it works.

However I see this problem solving with upcoming -swap command.

-leaving as builder after a kill or after spawn
This is not a good solution, as people can (for example, after -ar) wait at the mound, and not move, till Titan spawns. Resulting in their builder's removal, because of the game detects them as AFK, and of course then you would be allowed to leave. ^.^ (That is unless we want to ban people who happen to be AFK when the game starts.) Overall, the punishment should only be applied if a player constantly does this behaviour (leaving e.g. before 10 minutes). Also, I'd say there certain scenarios, like Titan losing lumber base too many times as a baser, while Titan has too many minions that practically you cannot have an impact on the game anymore. In such scenarios, I'd say that it is okay to leave. I don't think builders should STAY in the game purely for the reason that Titan can get feed/minion off them.

[osug]

@vex193
I think I know the individuals you are talking about.
It is kind of what I mean here

-leaving as builder in more than 3 games

[dlNO]

why, "it is okay to leave as Titan once there are 3 leavers/obs.".

[CalculuS]

@vex193
I think I know the individuals you are talking about.
It is kind of what I mean here

-leaving as builder in more than 3 games

Besides Index who is banned now I couldn't think of anyone else who does this.

I agree with the new rule but it make it time based or event based.

If titan has x minions before x minutes, titan is x level before x minutes.

Then there are also the random games where there is just noone with lumber/ability to base and it becomes this hide and seek nuke game in seeds where you wait for lumber. Not fun and I admit I have left games like this before.

[vex193]

@dlno it is heavily reduced feed and gold. I know you have had games where you were down 100 gold on titan. Making it dam hard to crack a base without them being stupid about the siege

[vex193]

@calculuS i have always played them out, but I feel ya. Especially, against good titans, where you know for a fact that you cant get gold and that titan will have floating eyes in all major bases with minis running around scouting. I feel like its too easy to do that titan strategy, since the normal floating eye lasts so long

[osug]

thank you so far for everyones input here.

@Remixer
I might point out the following:

-a owner of base died
If this happens late game, I don't see any reason why some one could not leave. If the reality is that there's just no way to hold after a base falls, might just as well speed up the progress and surrender.

there are surely cases when it is gg then. BUT if one dies mid and others could deto his base, I don't see a problem for staying here. People actually could get TPstaffs or something else for this scenario

I cannot share your concerns about having too many minis completly. Shouldn't builders try to gank minis then? Most times if that failes people can try to double base or they could work together, making walled escape routes and hope for gp.

I share your concerns about waiting at mound for obs tho.
Thing is, if one immediately leaves afterwards I can clearly say he did waited for obs. But yes, in general it maybe won't be a perfect solution.


@dlNO
Foodsources determinate the income for titans. If there are too few people it is not possible to get the feed needed.
You can surely agree that the map is too large for - let's say - 3 builders and 1 Titan.
Island Defense got no player-scaling mapsize (like for example Troll vs Elves)

[vex193]

@osug i will say every 1 out of 8-9 games, i do obs just to watch and usually become backup builder for someone that leaves mid-game with a large base. It's not right for me to do that sometimes, but there is that side of the coin of obs

[dlNO]

if there are less builders, dont builders get less income too? "map is too large for 3 builders and 1 titan" what is the correct map size to builder ratio? in troll and elves, it takes 5 seconds to find a base, care to explain your thoughts?

[osug]

@dlNO actually that really depends on the map size.
I had TvE games in which a big map was chosen and troll had struggle to find all bases before it was too late.
And no: there is no ratio for player/size for Island Defense.

Less builders means for builder: nearly same income (lumber/sec).
Less income for builder is true only if: titan gets really lucky and kills lumberbases one after the next one.
there is no such thing like: 10 builder=100% lumberrate, 5 builder= 50% lumberrate

Feels like this is kinda offtopic. Can you explain the intention of your question?