Clarification

[archol]

viewtopic.php?f=85&p=485848#p485848

Its really sad that people (even those who know better for sure) think that i force a draw for mere 15 elo or playing unfair at all (since i joined at season 1, there was no incident at all where people said i was an unfair player as far i remember) - considering others with me were in a similar situation in the past and even this season. This season i draw at least 6 games (even +20, ala i tried to force my team to draw), where my team was ahead in half of those games (especially the Donki game) - and yesterday people drew the first time for me in a 2s (at the same day the game above happened), because i couldnt build on level 5 due lag and even offered to keep playing, although i and my teammate were greatly behind. If you were in one those games or can confirm/deny that (this season or past), please comment.

Even in past season i draw all games (even all +20) and even offered to suicide / sell all towers / keep continue to lose games / playing losing games, i never reported any players or even dc-reports.

I really had to leave - i can show proofs of mobile phone and Whatsapp that someone was waiting for me. I really thought we end them on 17 (thus i could leave) and after this failed, i knew this game might be +20 (i was hoping they finish us on 20) and thus i had no time for that, and i barely could communicate because i was writing him nonstop on Whatsapp and that person was getting mad that i spend time for a video game and keep him waiting.

Im only sorry for my team to put them in that position (and others who had/wanted to draw due that) and a bit additional to Fate (but that wasnt meant as offensive that i think that he wont draw), and i dont blame Varg or Wolke (although he should know me way better rofl, ala friends) for their decision(s) - i never blamed or fought anyone since im in LIHL.

You are still in trial and this will definitely influence our judgement towards your behaviour and overall manners fit LIHL.

Thats unfortunate, because in my opinion this is not true at all. I take the ban, but some people should really reconsider their actions especially for the future (and past) and dont wonder why some people get emotional for getting treated like that in certain cases / topics.

If people think that im not fit for LIHL, please comment (in terms of behaviour or skillwise or similar) here too, and be serious please, thanks in advance haha

Cheers

[Meshtar]

Simple and brief. I think you belong in lihl and that you are generally a mannered player. That being said you tked with that decision and got punished accordingly so I wouldn't make much drama about this

[AvadaKedavra]

Isn't 7 days harsh for having to leave 20+?

People sign all the time with 40 min to play.

If you leave after seeing both teams live 20, shouldn't it be considered a 20+ game, thus no draw needed. In which case Wolke shouldn't be banned at all, and Archol should maybe get 1-3 days for an honest mistake, if his team reports him

[archol]

For honesty and without any negative records beforehand i got straight a 7 day-ban for just leaving a game before arena (>20).

I could also easily disconnect my internet and say that my electricity/internet was gone (like few are doing sometimes) or just leave on purpose without saying anything or get mad and ragequit, just for the record for future cases if something similar will happen (a game this season was similar, and got drawn on level 11 but no one reported it).

[Anda]

This is an appeal, just so you say you dont want to reduce your bantime doesnt change its purpose.Let me quote myself here:
It is a nuisance to discuss in processed cases on and on and on.
What i would insist upon everybody to do before you post in processed cases topics is speak with any member of the moderation staff, if you feel there is an urge to write at all.
So please take these steps, talk to moderator first, not satisfied post in processed cases.
Thank you for your future cooperation.

This is basically the situation imo.
Talk to me first or any other mod before you post an appeal please.I would have very willingly explained to you in private why i did what i did.
The conclusions you are taking here is not how i argued at all in the report.
Pretty much everything you stated here in your view is contradictory to what i wrote in my judgement.
If you feel the need to make me explain in more detail and maybe easier words how i came to that, let me know by any way.
Thank you

[KiwiLeKiller]

I also think this is quite an harsh ruling here.

viewtopic.php?f=215&t=121211 <-- I basically did the same as archol and I only got DC pen.

I understand all cases are different, but 7 days is quite harsh.

[archol]

@Snowblind

1) Excuse me, since when appeals need to be made in private and how should i know beforehand? The last appeals were also held in public (Fiji for example, 1 day ago) and i didnt even had the chance to defend myself before i got outright banned

2) What do you mean that my clarification is a contradicition to your ban reason? In my view i got banned because you think i somehow lied about my reasons. If its different please enlighten me

@Kiwi Thanks for the link, because this shows the unfairness in this case

So someone, who as trial player insults a player and forces/asks someone to disconnect on purpose and then tells a lie regarding that only not to lose the game only gets a 1 day ban as small warning after an intern discussion ... whereas the one, who did a fake disconnect on purpose (!), didnt even got a warning and only the usual disconnect penalty compared to my case, where i asked several times and offered to take my elo or a dc penalty, gets 7 days instantly? How would you feel if you get treated that way?

If cases are handed like that in different ways, then people shouldnt complain and wonder why others are treated in an unfair way (like recent cases with Vendeta or Supremebeing)

[Jamo]

I cannot believe why you keep thinking people think you lie about this case and wanna do you bad. First of all, you left a game and you got a ban for this. Only after this comes all the rest. It was a RL situation, which everybody understands, just the communication and leaving time etc in this game was really really unfortunate. Certainly because there was also a lack of time for youself to explain. So, from this regard all that Anda was judging here was a behavior that looked really bad in the first place (even if RL situation) and you got a ban for that, simple as that. On top, this shouldn't even have been reported! Varg + team should have taken the loss, which was like 99% certain and not stretched the rules because you left 1 sec before level end.

If now, instead of this post where you write 10 times what good person you are, that you always draw games (nobody cares, everybody does), pull out other games that have nothing to do with the case etc, you would have i) approached Anda personally and talked about the situation and ii) just made a normal statement (I would still call it appeal) saying that you have no bad history, you are sorry you had to leave because of the situation you explained, you know how it must have looked like to outsiders at first and you had no bad intentions ruining a game for 7 other people, I am 100% sure you ban time would be reduced or even lifted and this would not affect your trial and this case would be over.

Instead you just throw accusations to Anda, don't try to understand his perspective and reasoning and even say wishiwashi words like "some people should really reconsider their actions", which is just an empty sentence saying literally nothing but seems to throw accusations to everybody. Say what you mean and talk to the people instead of making a post saying what a nice guy you are.
And if you say you take the ban, then don't complain like this. If you feel unfairly treated, try to understand why the case was judged like that, talk to Anda and make a normal appeal. I don't understand what's so hard about that. Instead we have another case where everybody has an opinion and of course what a Moderator did is just wrong, like always...

[Anda]

Okay gonna have to essay now, no idea why you just dont write to me since we both speak german and this whole thing i could much better explain in native tongue .
I did not watch the game kiwi posted, haza was doing a dc pen himself without a formal report which i dont like and wont ever do myself if theres any other option. All i saw was hazardous judgement to only warn a new trial for telling somebody to abuse the rules in his own rights.Since he did not punish kiwi for anything, i didnt even think about there being anything wrong with the game, if it would have been haza would have taken care of it.Would i have known that kiwi did something very similar ( i dont know the case in detail and wont spend my time now rewatching this) i would also have said there is definitely a big ban in order.

There is no need to make an appeal in private,but then dont say it is a clarification when you clearly felt unjustly handled here and want to tell how unfair this is..it would just be much easier if you come to us moderators in general and ask for clarification or just give us a feedback forehand. I find that reasonable? We tried that request in processed cases because of all the chain commenting when quite frankly, no one was even closely reading anymore what was actually said by whom.
At the moment we are in favor to lock all processed cases, reform the whole forum rules and only allow appeals as a reaction to the huge spam/drama war in forum over the last weeks.

Is there a need for me as a moderator to ask you for your defense on a report topic? You were playing since the game happened and had the chance to check the forum, you could have easily been aware there might be a report on you since you did break the rules of LIHL very clear.

I did not ban you because i did not believe you were saying the truth that you could not play on 20+ due to a real life situation, as i said this stuff happens and everybody can relate to that.What i did ban you for is the measures you took in regard of that situation.i 100 % trust you that you could not play the game on 20+ and i never questioned that.I dont know why you
Also, i know you dont care about your own elo personally or in general.
What i would ask you to do is stop bringing nostalgia arguments up, since the days you are talking about are long gone and quite frankly, i dont give a crap about your behaviour back then since it does not have any merit towards your trial phase this time. We as the mod team are judging your current behaviour and ingame performance.
Thats why i commented on that it will definitely effect our judgement on your trial status.In general we have to discuss all problems, rulebreaks etc when we decide about a trial.It is our job to do that.
A little insight here, my opinion on you is that manner and behaviour wise you are a great fit to lihl, very pleasant to be with.Thats why i was so surprised when i saw this case. I did not expect that behaviour from you at all due to the great characteristics youve shown here so far.I would be foolish as a moderator to not look twice into your behaviour after this and judge this again. That does not say that i do think you are not fit to play in LIHL. I believe you felt i threatened you with that statement, and thats not the case.

Argumenting with others wrongdoings will not make your own faults valid.It doesnt matter how many people pp, dont draw as often as you do on a voluntarily basis( which i am a prime example myself, since that only 2s uve ever got drawn in your whole time here was my draw) double (p)anda power for great manners
Also what is that argument you could have just pped like others do ? i could have stolen your care but instead i just took ur briefcase? That makes it not robbery?

Let me summarize a bit what i think has happened.You knew before you send 17 that you would not be able to continue the game if that fails.THAT was the latest point of time to communicate that you have rl problems. You could have asked for the draw there instead of asking after you see they survive.You were willing to take the chances of you team winning over the chance of loosing due to afk / leave should that send fail.Do you consider that fair towards team 2 ? I do not.

You also have to accept the fact that other people care about elo, though you do not care about your own.That was a tough one for me to learn aswell, but it simply is their right to deny that drawing request, especially just after surviving your teams pretty much final shot to win the game.What i believe is that you did care about your teams elo. It is not a coincidence that you leave precisely 1 second before the wave 20 is finished.If you expect me to believe that, sry i will not.You had the draw rule in mind, and Varg even told you ingame they dont have to draw for you if 20 is over.Again, i believe you you hoped to die at 20, but it wasnt the case.You could have waited that 1 more second, or just said i go afk when you finished building for 5 and tell them to drop you if they survive and play 3v4.
The fact that you offer to take the dc penalty is generous, but you got to understand something aswell.You might dmg your own elo with it , but you take 12 elo from every person in the enemy team. And thats the only reason Wolke played on, he wanted that elo, because it was very obvious to me that they would to 99 % win the lategame.
I believe that you had good in mind, and you tried your best to be fair towards your team.
You abused the rules for that goal in a very obvious way and quite frankly you forgot to think about the enemys team feeling of justice aswell.We encourage players to use the rules to the communities advantage, but in that game you abused the rules and you did not realize by doing so you damage team 2 in a very injust way.They were part of that game aswell.
You could have handled everything far better and the ingame fight after you left is all in your responsibility because you felt you had the right to bend the rules to what you thaught is the right thing to do.This was not the case

Then i had to find a good balance what i found fair in this case. I needed to ban Wolke for the rulebreak or people will start interpreting the rules in the way they want, so i felt i had to punish that. Normal time is 3 days for that, since he has a very good reason due to your 1 second before pullout to be triggered and really mad, i halfed that time.
Judging on the situation i thaught 7 days is very legit.One can also argue for less or more, and im open to that. I dont ban people without an intention.And when we as moderators need to make a point we need to make them that people will remember and not do the same mistake twice, or we will have repeated offenses, more drama and much more time spend on stuff that keeps us away from why we are in this league in the first place... to play this game.I find nothing wrong with that at all.

I could add more, but i hope you understand better now why i acted like i did. Please dont come to conclusions that people feel offended because i ( come on say my name if you mean me) handle stuff wrong.
i hope you are just emotionally hurt, make your mind up, read all again and come back with a leveled head and as the very nice guy i came to know here. If you want the bantime to be lessened, or you still feel i judged you very unfair please go talk to micki or senpai.

[Vendeta]

All this argument is really not needed. This is in-house league, everyone here speak about manners, but no.1 is !draw when game is 3v4. No matter what. Thats how i see it. I dont know what reason it has to be not to draw a 3v4 game.

So it is very, very simple:

Archol: left the game on purpose - deserves a ban (what kind of ban, thats on moderators to decide, not on players)
Wolke: didnt draw 3v4 game - deserves a ban (in my opinion every game should be drawed when 3v4, pre or after 20)

Dont get me wrong both of u, i dont have nothing against any of u 2. But this is just my share of thoughts. Nothing personal.

@Archol
My friendly advice to u: dont argue about ban call, just make a normal appeal, or if u have need to talk about it, then talk it threw with mods, but in private. Im sure they will consider cutting some time, if u deal with this in proper way.

Peace !

[HazarDous]

Since you ( @Snowblind ) asked for feedback with regards to Kiwi's previous case, here it is. However, I won't be bothered reading / arguing about the rest of the essays.

I did not watch the game kiwi posted, haza was doing a dc pen himself without a formal report which i dont like and wont ever do myself if theres any other option.

I was in that game. Are you suggesting I should have made two separate posts to first report, and then another one to apply d/c pen?

All i saw was hazardous judgement to only warn a new trial for telling somebody to abuse the rules in his own rights.

I was lenient because Mudman had not broken any rule, per say. He was simply unmannered and manipulative by lying about kiwi's statements in order to force a draw, something we do not want to see in LIHL.

Since he did not punish kiwi for anything, i didnt even think about there being anything wrong with the game, if it would have been haza would have taken care of it. Would i have known that kiwi did something very similar ( i dont know the case in detail and wont spend my time now rewatching this) i would also have said there is definitely a big ban in order.

Well...... This case is more than 3 months old so I'll explain to the best of my recollection...

I could have been tougher on Kiwi and applied a ban for abuse of the draw, but I decided to be lenient for multiple reasons. As far as I remember, the game was pretty much one-sided, but I had no reason to doubt Kiwi having to go. He left around level 18 iirc, so it was really hard to judge. My opinion at the time was that he could have played up until around 27-28 (he said he couldn't play 31+ game). But there was a small possibility he had to go at this very moment, although I doubt it given he took the leisure to send 17, fail it, then talk for 3-4 minute, and then pull the plug. Another thing is that I was in the game and I probably did not want to bother with more drama with Kiwi, and simply applied the d/c pen for leaving (didn't turn out the way I expected as he posted a complaint nonetheless eh.). Anyhow, we could say I gave Kiwi a huge 'benefit' of the doubt, as well as being very lenient.

With regards to this case, @Snowblind , you should simply be worried about one thing. Are you positive that archol left pre-20 in order the abuse the rule? It's a tough line to walk on.. If one must go, I believe he should play until the very moment he cannot anymore but it is still possible archol had to go on level 19-20. Your only job is to assess his intentions to the best of your capability and punish any action of his you deem to be malicious in intent. If you are 80% sure, for instance, that he left pre-20 to abuse the rule, I would be lenient on his appeal and reduce it to maybe 1 day. It seem to be that 7 days is a little bit much for a first instance of rule abuse, not aware of his history, though. The fact that he's a new vouch should have no incidence on his unvouch time, new vouches are here to learn after all.

My personal opinion [based solely on the discussion I had with you earlier, I did not watch replay] is that archol truly had to leave, the timing is suspicious, and he should have communicated with rest of players in a better way. I would not have banned 7 days, maybe 1-3 and reduced upon appeal / understanding of his wrongdoings.

[Anda]

no haza i didnt mean to put you on a spot or anything here. I just wanted the feedback because it was said that we or me did let kiwi slip away with kiwi himself told me was the very same thing that archol did here. I jus wanted to make sure and point out i had no decision in this. There is nothing wrong when you as a moderator process yourown cases, i just dont like that due to the tendency of being called biased when you handle ythe stuff you personally see in game. But that is the choice of every moderator as he wants to doit. Thx for a fast response. As i said, im open to bantime etc, this is not about me eing stubborn on a number. I just wanted to point out why i think archol was wrong and broke rules and needed a punishment of it. If that punishmentis just, i dont care if other mods will reduce it since i can be at fault about everything aswell.
Thx for the fast resoponse haza

[HazarDous]

My pleasure, and I wasn't offended, dw.

@archol What are you seeking to achieve with this post?

If want this to be an appeal, you have two choices;

a) Ask for a second opinion from another moderator.
b) Explain why you disagree and why you should have the ban reduced. Also elaborate on how you would do things differently if this situation were to happen again in the future.


If you're merely asking for an explanation, maybe DMing Anda on discord would be more appropriate, given the static nature of a forum.

[archol]

As it stated in the title its a clarification of the game from my perspective, thus Ive learned two lessons

1) Faking a disconnect no matter how (how you can prove if its on purpose or for real) is only getting punished if it gets reported and only by mere disconnect penalty - i will remember that for future references, because honesty gets more punished (even supported by players as seen in Vargs topic) than hiding behind a lie

2) Past actions (even in this season) doesnt count at all when you are doing 1 somehow bad thing as it overshines all past accomplishments, because it doesnt count when you are reported, as mods mainly take their references from reported games ... so being nice all the time is basically the same if you are a dick.

Conclusion: I could be more cooperative towards my and the enemy team, more reasonable and talkactive - thats true, but i was in stress - 500ms up to 6000 ms due a VPN (if you sometimes have only 5-15 seconds to build and send), the bothering of my friend per phone and Whatsapp, and then the ingame chat. I hoped we die at 20 (they decide not to send), it didnt happen and then i left - i never thought of abusing this game at all, because my mind was set in real life and not ingame, i couldnt care less what happend during that game.

So what, im human and everyone does mistakes and i wont appeal (although its really unfair towards me as im the first victim of the new policy), and hope that future cases from now on will get handled in such way too with long bans (and hopefully i wont be the only example, else it was just biased against me) and its not nice either to tell me that i should reevaluate my real life in the banned period, when i prioritize it more than a video game - im not judging, im just saying

[Anda]

Jesus christ archol write to me direct and stop making these posts pls. Its quite frankly irritating that you play the victimrole here. I pretty much said only good stuff about you , yet you still break rules and you as an ex moderator should know very well you cant rule on no rules. They have to be respected, but still theres a certain amount of intepretational freedom to it for every mod.No idea if you are aware of it, the forum was hacked and the days you are always talking about are LOST to us i cannot judge you on anything i have no chance checking at.
I did not say you should reevaluate your real life, i did not attack you as a person at all . I need to say this out for everyone hear you to soothe your soul okay. I like you you are a good guy and i hope your skill is good enough to stay here because it hink LIHL needs more people like you. Can you still accept when you fuck up you fucked up and you make mistakes aswell and dont ask for absolute forgiveness ? Idc about the bantime , maybe i was 2 harsh and i wont argue against it if micki or senpai say i was 2 harsh. But please stop making this look like you are a victim here and i am the bad moderator that is wronging you and threaten you to deny your trial. Man up and talk to me in person.
And now lets move on please if you can.