Ban Appeal

[so_smart]

Your Warcraft III username: eaorlose
Realm/Gateway: useast
Why are you banned: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=125648
Why you should be unbanned: Big joke by angry admin.
Game starts 3v4, pink ruins cross, builts lod as delay and went afk and silenced after that. complete teamkill no chat afk player, we votekick, he gets kick, game gets drawn, admin go ban. appeal or not i want this reviewed. cause then ill know for sure u can do shit like that, when game starts 3v4.

[Panopticon]

You were banned for votekicking pink so you can draw the game, which is abusive.

[so_smart]

Why do you insist my intention for votekick was to draw? i tried to play a 3v4 game then pink went teamkill afk, so his kick was complete valid.

[so_smart]

btw are you even ent staff? i would like this to be proper reviewed in replay.

[Zeratul]

(00:00 / All) GammaRay: reallik needs to draw
(00:00 / All) aaaaaaaaaa: ok lets rep
(00:00 / All) eaorlose: report pink
(00:00 / All) aaaaaaaaaa: who will report them

Again yes, you were already complaining about pink making a LoD as delay (and told him to sell and build a frostwolf), however that wasn't said in the chat, only "report pink", and considering you were trying to get the game drawn, the reason for reporting pink at this point is due to not drawing, not the fact he was building LoD (Also crossing in mega has its risks - either you make sure your ally knows what crossing is, or you may find these situations)

(00:00 / All) eaorlose: he tk cross
(00:00 / All) eaorlose: retard moron
(00:00 / All) eaorlose: no talk
(00:00 / Allied) Alpaca: !votekick rell
(00:00 / All) BoboStomping: A votekick against player [rellik] has been started by player [Alpaca]. 4 votes are needed within 60 seconds to pass.
(00:00 / All) BoboStomping: Type !yes to vote.
(00:00 / All) Alpaca: let's kick please
(00:00 / All) Alpaca: he doesn't even respond
(00:00 / All) eaorlose: this fucking ape
(00:00 / All) BoboStomping: A votekick against player [rellik] has expired.
(00:00 / All) eaorlose: pink
(00:00 / All) eaorlose: can u kick
(00:00 / All) eaorlose: and we draw
(00:00 / All) eaorlose: or wtf

Again "he tk cross, retard moron, no talk" is barely a reason to votekick anyone (and not responding isn't a reason either) - however there you go again "can you kick and we draw", making people see the reason as you wanted to kick pink to draw the game

So it comes down to:

[*] Yes, indeed your cross failed since he had no idea how to cross (and he said it right at the start when you asked him - You should have ensured he knew what cross meant, rather than tell him "build delay there", assuming he knew what you were talking about)
[*]During the votekicks, the reason given was never the fact he dind't listen to you, but rather the fact you were trying to get the game drawn.

So:

[*]If pink was teamkilling? Considering the fact he had no clue what cross was (and you gave little to no help explaining what it is), yes he did teamkill, but no on purpose
[*]If it's bannable? Depends - Imo no: You did start explaining in a positive way at start when you told him to sell the LoD (and build frostwolf, which you should have done in the first place), however after that, and once the round started, your communication with him exploded and shit was already down the pipe to comeback after that

Next time, ensure that your ally knows what crossing means (specially when he says he doens't know how to like he did), explain better what exactly you want from him (I can tel you the first time i started playing LTD, and some1 told me to cross and to lumberjack, i thought the kid was retarded - so i can only imagine what he thought when u told him to delay), and ensure when the votekick is started, that the reason is given & is correct/detailed/explained

[so_smart]

Again yes, you were already complaining about pink making a LoD as delay (and told him to sell and build a frostwolf), however that wasn't said in the chat, only "report pink", and considering you were trying to get the game drawn, the reason for reporting pink at this point is due to not drawing, not the fact he was building LoD (Also crossing in mega has its risks - either you make sure your ally knows what crossing is, or you may find these situations)

what i said in allchat is irrelevant if my reasoning for votekick is correct.
the reason i wanted to draw was not because of pink or what he built, its because the fucking game started 3v4 before round 1, which you somehow did not seem to mention once as a reason for me drawing.
you also leave out where i clearly told him what to do:

(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: cross?
(00:00 / Allied) rellik: dont know how
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: ea
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: hydra
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: u income
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: just wisp
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: ok?

(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: built
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: delay here pls

(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: nono
(00:00 / All) Alpaca: kick him and 3v3 ?
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: not that
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: sell
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: -rolls
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: sell
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: built frost wofl
(00:00 / Allied) GammaRay: !draw
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: PINK
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: SELL IT
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: AND BUILT FROSTWOLF
HERE IS ROUND START SO GAME IS RUINED AT THIS POINT
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: omfg u moron

Again "he tk cross, retard moron, no talk" is barely a reason to votekick anyone (and not responding isn't a reason either) - however there you go again "can you kick and we draw", making people see the reason as you wanted to kick pink to draw the game

youre wrong cause "he tk" would have been enough of a reason for votekick, and yes at that point i again would suggest a draw because the fucking game is 2v4 - who wouldnt draw?

So it comes down to:

[*] Yes, indeed your cross failed since he had no idea how to cross (and he said it right at the start when you asked him - You should have ensured he knew what cross meant, rather than tell him "build delay there", assuming he knew what you were talking about)
[*]During the votekicks, the reason given was never the fact he dind't listen to you, but rather the fact you were trying to get the game drawn.

I DID ENSURE IT. PROOF ABOVE. BUILD DELAY THERE IS NOT ENOUGH HUH? CAN YOU PLEASE GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF A FOOLPROOF INSTRUCTION THEN?
DURING VOTEKICKS I TOLD HE TEAMKILL US. HE BUILT LOD LEVEL 1. THEN WENT AFK. NO WISP. NO BUILT. SAVE UP 250GOLD OR SMTH. IS THAT TEAMKILL OR IS IT NOT?

So:

[*]If pink was teamkilling? Considering the fact he had no clue what cross was (and you gave little to no help explaining what it is), yes he did teamkill, but no on purpose
[*]If it's bannable? Depends - Imo no: You did start explaining in a positive way at start when you told him to sell the LoD (and build frostwolf, which you should have done in the first place), however after that, and once the round started, your communication with him exploded and shit was already down the pipe to comeback after that

Next time, ensure that your ally knows what crossing means (specially when he says he doens't know how to like he did), explain better what exactly you want from him (I can tel you the first time i started playing LTD, and some1 told me to cross and to lumberjack, i thought the kid was retarded - so i can only imagine what he thought when u told him to delay), and ensure when the votekick is started, that the reason is given & is correct/detailed/explained

yes because after the round started, it is over for us. we are only 3 people after all, remember? what does it matter how i communicate with him? he doesnt answer anyway! wow man really? after that it went down? not the moment we played 3v4 and he built a lod as cross delay and went afk? not then? youre right, it was after my communication with him exploded. (tell me youre serious please)

my reason gives was correct, wasnt detailed and explained enough, ill admit that, but that still doesnt make the ban valid.

tbh the ban is over until the mods review it so its just principles for me. still...who are you people? i dont remember you in that game. you all seem to have strong oppinions you wanne share. feel free, but maybe think for yourself.

[Zeratul]

I could go on and on explaining what you did wrong (He told you he was new - telling him "just income, make wisp and make delay there" for someone whos clearly new, wont explain anything), but since you prefer us to keep our strong opinions for ourselves (since you clearly believe you did everything right), then have fun being banned, i wont bother

[so_smart]

(He told you he was new - telling him "just income, make wisp and make delay there" for someone whos clearly new, wont explain anything)

wont explain anything go show me how you would explain cross please. i really need to see that.

[Zeratul]

Not that you deserve it since you've been a bit disrespectful towards everyone on this thread, but ill give you a few hints:

(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: cross?
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: cross?
(00:00 / Allied) rellik: dont know how

After this you said:

(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: ea
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: hydra
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: u income
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: just wisp
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: ok?
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: built
(00:00 / Allied) eaorlose: delay here pls

For someone who knows the basics of LTD, that makes sense (judging by his overall elo/games played + the fact he said dont know how, it should have been enough for you to understand that you should have explained better), something like:

[*]I'll build for both lanes, you just need to make/build wisps and lumber ok? Wait for his confirmation
[*]I need delay here (ping at spot and even move your prophet there)
[*]-rolls -> Look at this t1 or t2 (no idea on his t1 since u told him to get a frostwolf)
[*]Make a frostwolf here plz (ping it and move your prophet if necessary)

And voilaa - Most likely he would have followed what you would have said, and game would be safe (Considering you had ea hydra, you woulnd't need the blocker for 4, so the only time you would need to ask him is for sends, tell him what to send, the blocker for 10 if rly necessary, and what to build after 10)

Does this really look that hard? Yes takes longer, however for someone new to LTD, you cant expect people to simply know what "go income, i value, delay here pls" means, unless you explain it properly, that's all.

Again, i did watch the replay and saw the terrible cross that happened with pink LoD, so im not saying you were completely wrong: Simply your communication could have been better, and it would most likely avoid what happened.

Regarding the votekick, your reason wasn't that clear (To your ally, yes he could see what was going on; To the enemy side "tk cross, retard moron, he doens't respond" means nothing at all - only god knows what the hell was going on in your side: No leaks to mid, no solo sending, etc. for them to understand clearly what happened), so it just looked like you were trying to kick pink to get the game drawn, rather than kicking him for the cross (which again, i woulnd't have votekicked either considering he wasn't intentionally teamkilling, simply your communication could have changed that)

[so_smart]

do you not see how your approach is BARELY ANY different from mine?

[*]I'll build for both lanes, you just need to make/build wisps and lumber ok? Wait for his confirmation

I didnt mention ill build for both lanes, cause its implied in the name "cross", i told him to do wisp and also asked for confirmation "ok?", at which point he STOPPED communication - NOW WHAT? What do i do? Votekick? Just take ruined Lane? -

[*]I need delay here (ping at spot and even move your prophet there)

I did ping. i didnt mention what unit he should be building cause its implied in "delay", as a building delay is obviously something else than built to hold. i might even have moved the prophet there, but nevertheless, he knew placed the lod on the right position. which means he actively choose to ignore my help

[*]-rolls -> Look at this t1 or t2 (no idea on his t1 since u told him to get a frostwolf)

which i did, which is why i saw landmine or smth and told him to frostwolf. Twice. what more can i do?

[*]Make a frostwolf here plz (ping it and move your prophet if necessary)

i did that twice, he choose to listen to some of what i say and not to other things.

so all in all, you can not say i didnt try to help. you can also expect some kind of cooperation in a teamgame, why he didnt ask what delay was? why didnt he ask what does cross mean?
i mean are we in school? do i need to teach and give them stuff they can read up on?
why are you blaming so much on my approach to help
instead of on pinks inability to cooperate?
im no saint, but at least im trying to give help, theres many many other people, who just wouldnt have bothered.

so stop make it look like i could have avoided it, by using different words. my words cant change pinks actions, if he choses to ignore me.
Ban invalid, did you agree on that part?

edit:
does this part here

Regarding the votekick, your reason wasn't that clear (To your ally, yes he could see what was going on; To the enemy side "tk cross, retard moron, he doens't respond" means nothing at all - only god knows what the hell was going on in your side: No leaks to mid, no solo sending, etc. for them to understand clearly what happened), so it just looked like you were trying to kick pink to get the game drawn, rather than kicking him for the cross (which again, i woulnd't have votekicked either considering he wasn't intentionally teamkilling, simply your communication could have changed that)

mean that red, the admin ingame, just banned all people without looking at the replay?

[Zeratul]

Well this will be my last and final post regarding this appeal ( @Amnon fyi - it's part of one of your brqs ) - You seem to fail to understand what you could have done different, and keep on trying to shift the blame into Pink for failing, into moderators for the ban, etc. , so i'm not gonna sugarcoat my words anymore, therefore:

[*]If you want to play a strategy (may it be cross, sending 15, etc.), it's on you to ensure your ally/team knows exactly what you want from it (True that pink could have been more communicative, but considering he was a new player/noob, and the fact he told you he dind't know what you meant, you should have been more communicative and work harder to get your point across/explain what you wanted);

[*]Delay can be a lot of things (and for someone who knows nothing about crossing, a LoD can be considered delay in the eyes of a noob, even if us, more experienced players, would never think that way.

[*]Again, crossing is a risk: You can find yourself crossing with someone who knows what you want, or you can find someone who has no clue what you want - specially on Mega bot, with newbies, it's a gamble/risk you have to be certain who you're crossing with, and ensure you get your point correctly across: You can blame pink all you want, but looking at your chat, from a neutral/noob point of view, you barely explained what crossing was, and what he was supposed to do (Again, to me and people who know how to play LTD, your chat is easy to understand; To noobs, it isn't, moreover he told you he had no idea how to - meaning you should have payed extra attention to how you phrase yourself and what you want -> You dind't, and ended up with a fucked up cross, plain simple).

[*]You're not on school, you're on a game which can be played solo lane or crossing:

Solo lane means you focus on your lane (and help your allies if you want)
Crossing means you are responsible for helping your ally in case he doens't know what to do (which in this case you failed to do so, and continue to refuse acknowledging that you could have explained yourself better to him)

[*]Pink can be blamed, however i can't blame pink for failing a strategy he doens't know, when:

A) He's noob/newbie
B) He doens't know how (I bet 2 cents he dind't even knew what crossing was at all, more over to what delay is - If he could have asked? Yeah he could, but when you have someone constantly telling you to do this and that, without a proper explanation, you focus on trying to understand what you're being told, rather than asking - So when you told him to build delay, and pinged, he built the lod; Afterwards you started "spamming" no, sell that, make frostwolf, nono sell, make frostwolf -> i can imagine he just froze, not understanding shit of what you meant (and even until the end, i doubt he understood what you really wanted)
c)Your communication/advices to your ally were insuficient

So no, i don't consider the ban invalid (Again, im not a moderator so don't use my opinion to classify the ban being valid or not), and ill tell you why:

[*] The votekick was abusive - Had you put a bit more effort in explaining what he had done wrong, the moderator who banned you, would have noticed that (and altho it looked abusive in chat - in the replay, he could see your effort to help, and pink inability to follow advices, which would fall under the general game ruin rule, where a player refuses to listen/cooperate).
[*]The reason given during the votekick wasn't clear at all: He wasn't intentionally teamkilling or ruining the game - Your miscommunication led to the somehow fail cross, and therefore he cant be votekicked/banned for it.

mean that red, the admin ingame, just banned all people without looking at the replay?

Can't reply for the moderator itself, but the last 2 arguments presented on [*] should be close to the moderator's reasons behind the ban i believe.

Now if you want my advice, to avoid future situations:

-> In the next games, where you try to cross, ask your ally if he knows what crossing is, and then decide:

A) He knows what crossing is - play normally, while still giving your ally advices if necessary (might not be needed, but you get what i mean)
B) He doens't know what crossing is - Either play solo lane, or cross at your own risk, knowing you will have to put an extra effort/attention in what you say to ensure the sucess of the crossing

-> Regarding votekicks, ensure the reason given is explained/detailed correctly (otherwise players are on their own responsability to vote/decide based on what they can see, and therefore your votekick will look as invalid/abusive).

EDIT: I do understand what you're trying to say, and yes, this is not a black or white case (meaning that there's room for different interpretations on whether the ban is valid or not), however since ENT is a noob friendly community, the benefit of doubt is given to newbies, unless there's enough evidence that corroborate that they were indeed game ruining.

[so_smart]

well, i appreciate your help but i still think i did enough to explain the situation to pink. it might have been barely minimum but it was sufficient.
my last words before my ban is over anyway:
i fully accept noobs. its why i only play mega, but if they refuse to listen to advice or just stop communicating, they can go play 1v1 and i can go votekick them outta my 4v4 games.

[AmnoN]

@so_smart Your attitude clearly demonstrates that you have not taken the time to understand the rule or the purpose of it and judging from your last statement, you have not learned your lesson. Your ban is ending soon and given my previous sentence, I will be denying your request, but will warn you that if this happens again, you will receive a longer ban.

Denied.