we need to ban for sylla only bear with rad strategy

[Connorchaos]

The rule was set up if the player only uses the bear and does not help the team with the hero, and it causes the team to lose then yes it is or was bannable.

[nitromon]

The last time anybody tried to issue a ban for this was almost 2 years ago, and it was me, but I got over-ruled. So it definitely is not a rule currently. Maybe this discussion will generate enough interest to change that.

Yes, that was me playing the bear.

Bear with rad is a fine strategy in a pub game but it hinders the potential of your team if that's the only part of your game. It gets outscaled rather quickly and deep into the games where your bear can easily die

I have to disagree with that. I'm sorry that there are so many noobs out there that ruin this build for others. But if we are going to dictate every strategy to a common lowest denominator and eliminate all forms of creativity, then this game is not worth playing. I played with you before, you are one of the most amazing players I've seen and a big part of it? Is your items choices are not typical. I saw you play a viper with blink, it was amazing. When I tried it? I sucked balls and got owned. Should we ban viper from using blink b/c I suck with it?

My last syllabear radiance game? I noticed the opponents were aggressive. They keep wacking me instead of running from me. When my teammates asked me if I am going dagon, I replied no. They were surprised. I instead went mjolnir and they asked me why. Shortly after I got it? I got an ultra kill with the bear. Went 12-0-6 in that game.

There is nothing wrong with the strategy, it is just many noobs don't implement it correctly nor understanding the role of this bear. I've written it in other forums in here before.

- Item choices is key and depends on the game! It is not always "a dagon"
- Bear has multiple roles - pusher, tank, support. Again, depending on which stage of the game and what the game asks for.
- Bear is a lane controller foremost - need the BoT right after dagon. Control the lane, keep the enemy on the defensive while your team either pushes another lane or farm if they were behind. The game described by Beerlord above, it was heated b/c we were on the verge of losing our rax under 15 mins. I finished the radiance in time and controlled the lane, kept the enemies on defense as my lategame carries farmed. It altered the outcome of the game.
- Lategame bear still has more HP than most support int heroes and doesn't require items to give him the HP, leaving 4 spots (excluding BoT and radiance) for support items such as guinsoo, shiva, mjolir, dagon, book. Book is actually one of my personal favorites. It serves both to detect invisibles, kill heroes, and push. One game, the enemy tried to push rax us, but one of the lanes our creeps reached their rax. I chose to let my teammates defend and I tp the bear over, with book and raxed them first then use return to base and help defend. We lost the tower, they lost the rax.

---

There are people who go dagon SB and do amazingly well and there are those who go dagon SB and just ruined the game. If we start limiting default builds, this game is going to become really boring.

[Zeratul]

Again, we're not limiting strategies or item choices - What aims is suggesting, which most people seem to not notice, or just plain ignore, is the players who just use the bear, and refuse to control the hero:

-> By only using 1, you're refusing to play with the 2nd, and whatever you say or whatever item you go for, 1 is less than 2, that's a fact and you can't argument anything there (same logic applies for Arc: Arc and his Clone are stronger together than just his Clone, same goes for Bear and Sylla are stronger together than just the bear)

-> Radiance bear works till some point: A decent team will gank you early ingame to delay you from getting your radiance (Speaking from my experience in my games, once there's a sylla ingame, he's my main target, and he's shutdown before he can become a problem; Same goes for LC junglers - gank them early and prevent them from snowballing later)and also have someone (most likely a carry) that will tear your bear apart easily, and then what:

Enemy team pushes all 5, and your team defends with what? 4 heroes, and why? Cause syllabear thought that the almighty-bear-that-has-2700hp-and-has-items-can-win-the-game, and now refuses to defend/push/assist cause his main is useless due to not having a single item -> This is the main concern/problem: People refuse to gear up sylla, thinking that the bear is stronger alone, and therefore refuse to push/play/assist/whatever you wanna name it, with the main hero leading to:

-> 1 Hero being afk at the fountain - Most of these players dont even use syllabear at all, sylla is just plain sitting at the fountain
-> Bear not being able to attack (Note: Not only bear has the ability to entangle, but it also deals more damage to buildings, which can alter a push/defense or a teamfight drastically)
-> 4vs5 games: Yes so cool that you force people to waste 75g or a travels cooldown to go back, yet in the end, you're still -1 in pushing/ganking/defending as long as you continue to neglect using syllabear

PS: Regarding your statement of dagon sb, which some can profit on it and others don't, that is irrelevant to this situation: You're still using your hero (despite the item choice), in this specific case, we're talking about players who blatantly refuse to use their hero

EDIT:

The rule was set up if the player only uses the bear and does not help the team with the hero, and it causes the team to lose then yes it is or was bannable.

That was indeed what we (me/you/nabo/getstomped) had discussed in the past, however it seems to have been overruled by the present staff, ergo why this suggestion is taking place atm.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=103754
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=103814

If I need to say it for you - No. The syllabear strategy is not ban-able on ENT nor do we punish anyone who uses it. The moderator in question who stated such was not speaking the truth and the ENT administration/management will deal with that area.

This strategy, even though may be frowned upon by some due to it's nature, is allowed on ENT.

[nitromon]

@Zeratul

But everything you are saying can be applied to any other situation. It is unfair to solely place it on the syllabear. For example, any hero getting ganked early and denied a core item will fail. This has nothing to do with syllabear. When a geo is in the game, a smart team picks sb and other gank heroes to keep him down from farming up. It is a typical strategy.

Also, the 2 is better than 1, not every hero gets a sidekick. It is 1 out of 4 abilities like all other heroes and there are plenty of heroes which some may deny 1 ability for various reasons. For example, I rarely if ever play SF, but when I do (once for the 1st time in arem), I don't get the nukes b/c I absolutely suck with it. Instead I get +2 instead. Yet I've done amazingly well with that hero. Also, going both bear and hero means you split the earning and items into 2 heroes, it is balanced shared. Going specifically bear or hero (which I do sometimes) then benefit the items only for that unit.

What about Arc? I've seen Arcs at lategame with 2 divines and never leaves fountain, just push and kill with his clone. I would love to see that banned b/c it is practically unfair to the opposing team. But still, strategically it is not illegal.

I've been very successful with radiance bear in 90-95% of my radiance bear games. Several into lategame. I can make it work. Why should I be punished b/c other people cannot get this to work?

[Zeratul]

So let's see:

-> Furion should be allowed to afk in fountain, since he can send treants into battle and has a global ulti: Makes sense to you?
-> Beastmaster has 2 minions: one that can attack and slow, and the other can scout: let's allow him to afk fountain too

I could go on and on, but hopefully u got my point

Again, the syllabear strategy can work (no1 said otherwise), the problem resides (and the grey area happens due to that as well) in the games where the strategy fails, the player using syllabear fails to adapt, and refuses to use his hero: As far as i'm concerned, i dont mind people playing the radiance bear strategy, what i do mind is people who notice they are starting to fall behind (no longer being able to run free with the bear, bear getting focused and have to go back to avoid dying, etc.), and instead of adapting and gearing up sylla for a lategame comeback, they continue to refuse using syllabear (even when their team asks for their assistance).

Regarding Arc, most players use both the clone and the main hero, even those who go for rapiers (Obviously they pay more attention to the main one to avoid losing the rapiers, but never saw them afk fountain), but sure, i could apply the same logic here, and on this case its far worse - Why? Cause arc and his clone have exactly the same items, so if your team needs you to defend/push, and you refuse to use your main for whatever reason, you are blatantly refusing to help your team (which is bannable per the current rules).

In the brq linked by aims, you can see where the problem started:

"even though his bear was busy to farm and our bottom is being pushed, he didn't use his hero. " - I still find it hard how he wasn't banned for afk grief tbh (If neither the hero or bear was used to defend, you are refusing to play/defend with the team, which is supposely bannable, aside from the bear strategy), but not my brq so not my problem

Anyways - In that game, you can see he refused to use his hero (since he never geared him up), therefore syllabear was just useless and unable to play ( I wont go much deeper into that brq, cause the fact he dind't even use his bear to defend, makes the brq denial look odd)

[Connorchaos]

its not really the current staff. Tbh Dota is complicated compared to lets say ltd. More hero selections more items, item combinations. So a lot of these newer staff wont know the details of what happens in dota.

It is a slowly dying game and doesnt garner as much attention as it used to, so the focus on it becomes less. It mays till have a ton of brq to it but I believe it has more rules that can be broken, and more toxic players. So Rules like this are not inforced as often and the new staff wouldnt know exactly how to deal with it. Pull hazo into it he will know the deal

[Merex]

Too many pros/cons to come to a definitive rule regarding sylla bear strategy.

Pros-
*Can lane control and early flank.
*Initially tank for a rather squishy team
*Harass extensively.
Cons-
*Get ganked slowing down radi (20 min+)
*Do no damage vs tankier heroes (leo post-30 => example)
*Fall behind easily and therefor render bear useless (no gold => not alive enough for radi to it's part)

There's been several argument on the matter, however leaving it allowed is the preferred solution.

Regarding any potential rule breaks - It's still possible to be reported for not defending/team playing with bear. It works as any other hero initially, not sure why people assume it's the strategy in this case that's the issue. If you intend to use this method, you are therefor transferring any potential/effectiveness from your main hero to your bear and as such will play it like a hero in itself, no exceptions.

[EdgeOfChaos]

It seems the core of the argument is that not using your main hero should be bannable. If so, should not using your main Arc Warden also be bannable? It's the same thing, yet I don't think anyone would say it should be banned.

It seems like these things should be judged case-by-case.

[Sylvanas]

Not allowing a bear to maul people is basically animal cruelty.

[aimskjs]

Too many pros/cons to come to a definitive rule regarding sylla bear strategy.

Pros-
*Can lane control and early flank.
*Initially tank for a rather squishy team
*Harass extensively.
Cons-
*Get ganked slowing down radi (20 min+)
*Do no damage vs tankier heroes (leo post-30 => example)
*Fall behind easily and therefor render bear useless (no gold => not alive enough for radi to it's part)

There's been several argument on the matter, however leaving it allowed is the preferred solution.

Regarding any potential rule breaks - It's still possible to be reported for not defending/team playing with bear. It works as any other hero initially, not sure why people assume it's the strategy in this case that's the issue. If you intend to use this method, you are therefor transferring any potential/effectiveness from your main hero to your bear and as such will play it like a hero in itself, no exceptions.

Av1on please watch this replay after scourge lost mid and bot rax.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=126196
you will see sylla hero just afk in fountain while creeps are taking our towers around thorne. He could use his hero to pull the creeps to fountain to protect our base but he refused. in this case, it should be banable for not defending base using hero.

[nitromon]

Again, everyone against this strategy is deliberately ignoring this fact:

It is not the strategy, but the player.

A player playing radiance bear which ruined your game would ruin it with any other hero. This is fact. A good player can play radiance bear extremely well. @sev supports this strategy and I believe this player is 1600+? I'm pretty sure sev plays a magnificent radiance bear, why should he be blamed for other bad bears?

There are some really good techies out there but majority are bad. It is so bad that it has almost become a regular complaint whenever a techies is picked. Majority of the time a techie is picked, someone on the team always say "oh no, techies, we lost!" "guess it is 4v5 teamfights." etc... etc... should we ban techies?

Every excuse to ban this bear strategy so far has been unfairly targeting radiance bear when it applies to any other hero.

- Get ganked a lot early from getting radiance: This would be the same for ANY hero in the game whether geo, radiance spectre, etc... When I decide to go radiance bear, if I am unable to farm the radiance by 15 min mark, I can easily use the gold I have to go dual bear. I also do not jungle for my radiance. I NEVER solo jungle with any hero and been quite verbal about how stupid that strategy is on any hero. (debunked)

- Do no damage vs tankier heroes (leo post-30 => example): Unfair! How many support heroes can do a lot of damage late game against leo or other tankier heroes? So again, this is unfairly targeting the bear. Any nuke hero will lose effectiveness after 30 mins and they rely on supporting the team instead. Yet how many support heroes after 30 min can still have 2700 hp without hp items such as heart, skadi, even linken? Still have Bot, Radiance, and FOUR support items? Can support in team fights AND control lanes? Nobody said radiance bear has to carry. It is support. (debunked)

- Fall behind easily and therefor render bear useless (no gold => not alive enough for radi to it's part): I haven NEVER fell behind in a radiance bear game. Way too easy to farm with radiance bear if done correctly. As a lane controller, easily outfarm ANY of my teammates. I TP to lane, farm and return home, jump and switch lane. A player who can't farm with radiance bear will not be able to farm with other heroes as well. It is the player, not the strategy. (debunked)

The problem is not the strategy. The problem is most players are not aware that there are more than 3 roles in DOTA. It is more than carry, tank, and support. There are lane controllers, crowd controllers, assassins, harassers, etc... support itself is not specific, there are healer support, disabler support, etc...

The Syllabear b/c of his pet, is one of those few multi-role heroes, which is why I love this hero. Spectre is the other one. Everyone assumes when a spectre is in the game it must be played in this 1 style going radiance and heart and blah blah blah. Nobody said Spectre has to play tank. Syllabear can go bear only, hero only, or dual bear. Even in dual bear there are various ways to play. One I tried a couple of times: Straight for 2 books and 2 manta and go push bear. I literally destroy lanes, raxes, and overwhelm enemies in teamfights. The other time, I picked Sylla and the opponent counter me with witch doctor and windrunner. I counter back, hero only build! No bear. Went lothar, crit, satanic, skadi, basher. Instead of the bear, I get +2 to naturally increase hp/armor without items early. THIS is what Dota is all about.

I mean. if this is the way it is going to be. Then why not simply write a list of "acceptable" items for each hero and playing style and force everyone to conform to it?

Kill the creativity b/c some people abuse it by going stupid builds like blink on antimage.

[Zeratul]

So now you wanna pull elo to classify better arguments? Aims is currently 1700+, and im on 1800+ -> So following your idea, our opinion matters the most cause we are higher elo than Sev, is that it...? I mean cmon dont pull public elo to justify an argument from a player being better than X or Y.

- Get ganked a lot early from getting radiance: This would be the same for ANY hero in the game whether geo, radiance spectre, etc... When I decide to go radiance bear, if I am unable to farm the radiance by 15 min mark, I can easily use the gold I have to go dual bear. I also do not jungle for my radiance. I NEVER solo jungle with any hero and been quite verbal about how stupid that strategy is on any hero. (debunked)

Again here's one of the main problems: Most syllabears will continue to aim for the radiance (even if its ready by 30+ mins), instead of adapting, so with your argument you're actually supporting what i said before

- Do no damage vs tankier heroes (leo post-30 => example): Unfair! How many support heroes can do a lot of damage late game against leo or other tankier heroes? So again, this is unfairly targeting the bear. Any nuke hero will lose effectiveness after 30 mins and they rely on supporting the team instead. Yet how many support heroes after 30 min can still have 2700 hp without hp items such as heart, skadi, even linken? Still have Bot, Radiance, and FOUR support items? Can support in team fights AND control lanes? Nobody said radiance bear has to carry. It is support. (debunked)

A dual hero/bear can carry/support/gank, while a radiance bear will hardly do that after 30 mins (specially when the bear cant even attack on its own, due to the no usage of the hero - So you got a bear who has entangle, who can deal twice the damage on buildings, but now you don't use it, due to the pathetic idea of using the bear alone).

I could easily give you a clear example: Rhasta pushing a lane with wards - Bear and sylla could easily stop him from pushing, as both hero/bear attacking wards demolish that fast; With your bear idea, you cant even attack the wards unless you use your "book" (which will die in 3 secs to wards) - Yes, you're gonna say other allies could defend the lane, true, but doens't mean that bear only (and refusing to use your main hero) is acceptable due to that.

- Fall behind easily and therefor render bear useless (no gold => not alive enough for radi to it's part): I haven NEVER fell behind in a radiance bear game. Way too easy to farm with radiance bear if done correctly. As a lane controller, easily outfarm ANY of my teammates. I TP to lane, farm and return home, jump and switch lane. A player who can't farm with radiance bear will not be able to farm with other heroes as well. It is the player, not the strategy. (debunked)

This is pretty much the same logic/strategy as in meepo - If you can micro well, and keep lanes pushed, and out of danger yourself, it works; If people counter you correctly, your bear is dead + It's quite easy to fall behind on several situations, including and not only, sylla getting ganked early, enemy team with better push earlier, etc.

Again, my comments and my idea on the suggestion is not to ban the bear only strategy - The strategy itself is acceptable, what is not acceptable is the fact that when this strategy starts failing (which happens - on this hero or any other hero), people refuse to change and adapt: their perception goes to "I started as radiance bear, and i cant use my main hero - imma keep playing with the bear and i refuse to move my hero, deal with it" -----> Thats the biggest problem.

I consider myself a very decent techies, and i do suffer from the "omg a techies, repick it ... ok we lose !ff" due to the techies players you mention - yet i've shown in several games, that not only techies is able to put a stop to carries farm (while letting his own team farm/push), but also be a significant damage dealer in teamfights (which most people got surprised to where that damage was coming from).

If my strategy work all the time? Nope, obviously not - If i play vs decent enemies, im gonna have to adapt and change the way i play, place mines, locations, etc. , but there's the catch: You adapt to continue being useful to the team/game -> These bear radi only players don't do it - They simply continue to use the bear, and refuse to use the main hero (which could have a major impact on the game)

Imo, and this was what we used in the past (on a case by case) was whenever a bear radi strategy was used, there were several things to keep in mind (Obviously game was lost, since no1 reports bear radi only in won games):

-> Did the team actually ask for his assistance?
-> Did he make the effort to try using his hero (Aims brq is a clear example of such: He could have used syllabear to defend, yet refused to do so)
-> Would the game result change, had he played it different (ex: gearing up sylla, etc.)?

Yes, it's not a definite solution, but you cant simply ban a strategy based on that, when the problem resides in both strategy and the player.

PS: You've spoken about so many syllabear builds, and i still havent seen one of my favorites: The double basher =) Gotta love the sylla/bear basher strategy - Double stun, entangle, and later on with roar (and some items), quite some significant dmg ^^

[aimskjs]

Sev said he farm rad for bear and use bear with rad to farm to buy items for hero. It is not just bear only.

Sylla can often get radiance quick and use the bear to farm neuts for the next 10-15 minutes to put items on his main

be honest, you wouldn't do bear only strategy in in-house game because you know using both hero and bear is much better than bear only no matter what. even though u don't buy item for hero and just get item only for bear, you can do more thing in team fight using hero and bear together (bear entangle, attack distract etc).

[aimskjs]

Hey, I suck at micro (seriously LOL I don't make necrobook cuz I can't micro). So I don't play meepo in pub. when I repick hero I'm given first to meepo, I fail everygame. So what I am thinking now is I will not be banned for using 1 meepo to play better not feeding according to your theory LOL. just rad on main meepo and fuck around with dagon and some escape item.

[BeerLord]

Off topic:

I consider myself a very decent techies

Understatement of the year...