we need to ban for sylla only bear with rad strategy

[nitromon]

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=10579094

Just played this game to test it. It is a very good example of what I've been saying. My score is nothing spectacular 4-2-3, but watch the replay and you'll see what I mean.

- got ganked twice early, but finished radiance at exactly 15 min.
- by 15 min, our team was getting abused by ganks with their SB + urn Bat. Lost all outside towers. We have 2 late carries, geo + spec who needed time to grow.
- radiance sylla doing what he does best, lane control, spread the floor, force the enemy to defend and give "breathing room" to my carries so they can get big.
- didn't go dagon. Bear was killed early by a drow + tinker. Adapt strategy, BM then mjolnir.
- main strategy all game is harass and lane control.
- They have both a techies and a tinker who are lane controllers, I outcontrolled both of them.
- Geo and pho took over when strong enough, we won the game. I was making book at the time to help push and take rax.

(For the record though, I rarely play this strategy b/c I think it is too good and a little unfair to the opposing team. In fact, I don't even mind it if it was banned for that reason. I'm just defending this strategy being banned for being a bad strategy. )

even though u don't buy item for hero and just get item only for bear, you can do more thing in team fight using hero and bear together (bear entangle, attack distract etc).

It's not about what is "better" or what is "worse," but it is just a different playing style. If we're going to limit those, it opens a pandora's box.

Some people are gun ho players and if that's what they are, then so be it. But I play for fun. It is an enjoyment. I see this guy go rhasta and just suicide rush towers/raxes all game, even backdoor, whatever it takes to win the game. I honestly feel sorry for that guy.

I play for fun and what I love most about this game which kept me going is how it challenges me to think outside the box. The game is all about counter and counter-counter. Hero counter, item counter, strategy counter.

[Sev]

Sev said he farm rad for bear and use bear with rad to farm to buy items for hero. It is not just bear only.

Sylla can often get radiance quick and use the bear to farm neuts for the next 10-15 minutes to put items on his main

be honest, you wouldn't do bear only strategy in in-house game because you know using both hero and bear is much better than bear only no matter what. even though u don't buy item for hero and just get item only for bear, you can do more thing in team fight using hero and bear together (bear entangle, attack distract etc).

Yes i wouldn't do this in in-house, but i also wouldn't make radiance on terrorblade in in-house either so it is what it is ^^

[Burnt]

be honest, you wouldn't do bear only strategy in in-house game

u would't do bear only in ih because u get kicked after using it once. This only works against 5 pubs and ppl who defended this "strategy" here plays pub for an lol and pub builds are not to be discussed seriously

[aimskjs]

be honest, you wouldn't do bear only strategy in in-house game

u would't do bear only in ih because u get kicked after using it once. This only works against 5 pubs and ppl who defended this "strategy" here plays pub for an lol and pub builds are not to be discussed seriously

my point is that you know bear only build isn't any good compare to hero only and using both hero and bear.

[Burnt]

my point is that you know bear only build isn't any good compare to hero only and using both hero and bear.

Agree. It's basically a noob combo, used by noobs, effective only vs noobs, appreciated and defended by noobs, etc

[nitromon]

my point is that you know bear only build isn't any good compare to hero only and using both hero and bear.

That again depends on the game, on enemy, etc.. Again, if you play against say 5 early strong gankers and pushers and your team is mostly lategame, you as sylla should go radiance bear to balance it out. So in that instance, it is "good" if not better compare to dual bear.

Keep in mind dual bear is a mid level to late level carry, still require core items especially if there are heavy and strong heroes on the opposing team. Without certain necessary items for both the bear and the hero, it is ineffective.

In the game mentioned by Beerlord, the replay is probably too old and gone now and I didn't save a copy, we were losing bottom rax at the 15 min mark. The enemy team had nukers/pushers and were aiming for a early win. Getting that radiance just in time to save the rax and then gave breathing room to our carries and eventually won the game. I bought them time. Going dual bear in that game? I would've joined the rest of my teammates standing there helplessly as they rax bot at 15 mins.

[aimskjs]

my point is that you know bear only build isn't any good compare to hero only and using both hero and bear.

That again depends on the game, on enemy, etc.. Again, if you play against say 5 early strong gankers and pushers and your team is mostly lategame, you as sylla should go radiance bear to balance it out. So in that instance, it is "good" if not better compare to dual bear.

Keep in mind dual bear is a mid level to late level carry, still require core items especially if there are heavy and strong heroes on the opposing team. Without certain necessary items for both the bear and the hero, it is ineffective.

In the game mentioned by Beerlord, the replay is probably too old and gone now and I didn't save a copy, we were losing bottom rax at the 15 min mark. The enemy team had nukers/pushers and were aiming for a early win. Getting that radiance just in time to save the rax and then gave breathing room to our carries and eventually won the game. I bought them time. Going dual bear in that game? I would've joined the rest of my teammates standing there helplessly as they rax bot at 15 mins.

For your statement highlighted with yellow, we are not talking about bear is rad is bad. Bear with rad is good enough to farm and defence pushing. We are talking about bearonly with rad without hero nearby. If bear walks around with hero (hide or stay bit far from bear if u are scared of dying) bear is able to attack hero creeps and building which is 1000000X times better than just walk around with rad.

For your statement highlighted with green, you just admit that you need dual bear with some core items against strong late carry. Sound like if you make rad and dagon on bear and no item on hero putting in base against some hard carry such as spec, leo, void, am, dusa etc is typically throwing on purpose or can be called wrong strategy. Bear only with rad work only against 5 low hp support player without heal.

[Astros]

You have to consider the fact that most users who bear rad steal farm from their team and make it more difficult for them to get their items and when a sylla just ends up running marathons with the bear while the team has to legitimately defend and push a 5v4 battle, it's unfair in some cases. It hasn't happened often as many players simply repick sylla or play both but IMO, it's a poor excuse of a "creative" strategy when there is no evidence that the summoned bear is more impactful than Sylla as the game goes on. If your hero is afk at fountain, you should be banned, period. Arc is not the same for obvious reasons. Sylla's bear summon can't push towers the way Arc can and in many cases, Arc's illusion causes players to often ignore it and gives Arc an opportunity to defend if enemy team is pushing while also pushing himself. There is no reason a Sylla, late into the game, should be in the base using only bear.

[Merex]

You have to consider the fact that most users who bear rad steal farm from their team and make it more difficult for them to get their items

Hardly. If anything, a sylla-bear only is guilty of a couple of KS's due to dagon being a commonly used item. Other than that, it's actually the opposite. Any teammate automatically can just take the gold since bear's only source of damage is a slow DPS (Radi).

and when a sylla just ends up running marathons with the bear while the team has to legitimately defend and push a 5v4 battle, it's unfair in some cases. It hasn't happened often as many players simply repick sylla or play both but IMO, it's a poor excuse of a "creative" strategy when there is no evidence that the summoned bear is more impactful than Sylla as the game goes on.

Running marathons is a very poor term to be used here honestly. One of radi bear's most advantaging attributes is being able to run fast in the mid-early and harass. It's one of the main reasons why the strat is even used. While your team is pushing two lanes, radi bear can be pushing one to both towers if done right. Not only that but pretty much any squishtown agil/intel is going to be running for their lives hoping radi doesn't kill them which in most cases; it does.

Going to also say that radi bear, as stated, holds a lot of tanking potential. For a team to even focus a bear in team fight is damage being absorbed to a unit that does nothing but feed a couple hundred gold. Not only that, but if the bear is being utilized as such and not just going full-flank, BM can easily kill off anything that's targeting such. To say that the bear holds nothing but a grief-like spot (ks, stealing gold, no effectiveness) is just silly honestly. It's still a 6 slot capable tanking unit with fast move-speed and a default mana pool.

Sylla's bear summon can't push towers the way Arc can and in many cases, Arc's illusion causes players to often ignore it and gives Arc an opportunity to defend if enemy team is pushing while also pushing himself. There is no reason a Sylla, late into the game, should be in the base using only bear.

It's initially the same necro summons if we're talking Arc illu vs bear, with a mild difference that the illu has the ability to attack as opposed to bear which gives off radi damage. You can say that radi bear 80% of the time goes unignored, too. The minute that an enemy hero decides to try and flank, it runs away and teleports back to sylla (base).

It's completely debatable on whether or not a sylla-bear only works in the late because it'll either provide enough harassing/flank to be able to keep enemy heroes at enough of a disadvantaging point to where your team can push/harass themselves or it will fall off in the mid-late but even then, depending on team experience, could still provide enough of an advantage for a carry on your team to get ahead. There's benefits to be done with a sylla-bear only just as much as there is to lose.

Coming back to what I said earlier, this is why a definitive rule regarding the sylla-bear only strat will be difficult because if it's deemed 100% ban-able, then we're essentially disallowing any unique strategies to be played on ENT, considering all the pros/cons that come with such in specific.

Personally, I'm going to side with nitromon on the ideal that a sylla bear only can definitely provide advantages, and it is very annoying to play against but it's a situational pick just as much as every hero can be in dota. To say that the strategy itself falls off due to lack of feed, lack of kills, lack of radi etc. can be said about any other regular hero - and last I checked, we don't ban people for simply having bad games and still trying to make something of it.

[aimskjs]

Av1on please explain me what bear only strategy can do to defend base. Bear can't attack if sylla isn't nearby. Radiance damage is slow DPS as you said which mean bear does nothoing in fast team fight.

[Astros]

You have to consider the fact that most users who bear rad steal farm from their team and make it more difficult for them to get their items

Hardly. If anything, a sylla-bear only is guilty of a couple of KS's due to dagon being a commonly used item. Other than that, it's actually the opposite. Any teammate automatically can just take the gold since bear's only source of damage is a slow DPS (Radi).

and when a sylla just ends up running marathons with the bear while the team has to legitimately defend and push a 5v4 battle, it's unfair in some cases. It hasn't happened often as many players simply repick sylla or play both but IMO, it's a poor excuse of a "creative" strategy when there is no evidence that the summoned bear is more impactful than Sylla as the game goes on.

Running marathons is a very poor term to be used here honestly. One of radi bear's most advantaging attributes is being able to run fast in the mid-early and harass. It's one of the main reasons why the strat is even used. While your team is pushing two lanes, radi bear can be pushing one to both towers if done right. Not only that but pretty much any squishtown agil/intel is going to be running for their lives hoping radi doesn't kill them which in most cases; it does.

Going to also say that radi bear, as stated, holds a lot of tanking potential. For a team to even focus a bear in team fight is damage being absorbed to a unit that does nothing but feed a couple hundred gold. Not only that, but if the bear is being utilized as such and not just going full-flank, BM can easily kill off anything that's targeting such. To say that the bear holds nothing but a grief-like spot (ks, stealing gold, no effectiveness) is just silly honestly. It's still a 6 slot capable tanking unit with fast move-speed and a default mana pool.

Sylla's bear summon can't push towers the way Arc can and in many cases, Arc's illusion causes players to often ignore it and gives Arc an opportunity to defend if enemy team is pushing while also pushing himself. There is no reason a Sylla, late into the game, should be in the base using only bear.

It's initially the same necro summons if we're talking Arc illu vs bear, with a mild difference that the illu has the ability to attack as opposed to bear which gives off radi damage. You can say that radi bear 80% of the time goes unignored, too. The minute that an enemy hero decides to try and flank, it runs away and teleports back to sylla (base).

It's completely debatable on whether or not a sylla-bear only works in the late because it'll either provide enough harassing/flank to be able to keep enemy heroes at enough of a disadvantaging point to where your team can push/harass themselves or it will fall off in the mid-late but even then, depending on team experience, could still provide enough of an advantage for a carry on your team to get ahead. There's benefits to be done with a sylla-bear only just as much as there is to lose.

Coming back to what I said earlier, this is why a definitive rule regarding the sylla-bear only strat will be difficult because if it's deemed 100% ban-able, then we're essentially disallowing any unique strategies to be played on ENT, considering all the pros/cons that come with such in specific.

Personally, I'm going to side with nitromon on the ideal that a sylla bear only can definitely provide advantages, and it is very annoying to play against but it's a situational pick just as much as every hero can be in dota. To say that the strategy itself falls off due to lack of feed, lack of kills, lack of radi etc. can be said about any other regular hero - and last I checked, we don't ban people for simply having bad games and still trying to make something of it.

These are pretty generic replies in a game that involves many strategies and a variety of factors that may influence the game.

1) As you mentioned, bear has a high MS - especially when used with Sylla's spell. I've seen players leave the entire lane alone to the bear just because they know they aren't going to get any farm. What happens is the other team ignores the bear, Sylla continues using the bear to farm minions and "push" the lanes by waiting for their own minions to attack towers, while his teammates defend the base and don't end up being able to farm anything because it's already a 4v5 and if they do decide to farm, it puts their team at a disadvantage more-so than it is. You're right; early to mid-game, Sylla's bear with rad is insanely annoying. But no one is arguing against a bear with rad. The underlying argument made by the OP is that a player should be banned if by late in the game (when raxes are getting pushed), Sylla is at the fountain unable to defend. Hell, I just played a game last night against a Sylla using this strategy. We killed his bear twice in a row because he overestimated his bear and ends up getting caught back-to-back. We then took the opportunity to push knowing Sylla likely had no items. It was an easy rax. One that could be avoided if Sylla had started using his hero more and not just his bear.

2) No one said bear holds a grief-like spot. What we've been saying, however, is bear alone is not enough to win the game in many cases. Yes, it'll work vs bad players with no communication. Quite frankly, even the silliest strategies would work against those same players as well. It does not prove that it is a viable strategy to win games consistently. It's so easy to bait a bear with a team that listens. And with a team with a few disables? They're dead. We had a rhasta on our team that particular game I mentioned and there was nothing that bear could do. He was dead every time Rhasta shackled it and we were around.

3) I can guarantee a bear running around with rad, dagon, blademail, and whatever else item you can think of will not outperform an Arc with comparable gold (assuming they have the same gold to get their item build). Arc can cast spells, kill heroes rather easily, and their necro-book (as you mentioned) is 10x more useful than when bear uses it because when Arc uses his slow, that's when the summons actually have a larger impact. Those necros are not going to be able to chase many heroes late into the game. With Arc, they can. Plus, as already mentioned, Arc's role is great in that he can be an amazing pusher/defender. He can do both better than bear by a long shot.

4) Of course it's debatable. And I'm likely to believe that most players who do a bear+rad+dagon strat aren't really trying to win the best way they can but are simply trying to enjoy having the most fun usually, at the cost of their teammate. This strat is just very lousy from a perspective of trying to win games. It's much more effort to control Sylla and his bear together than it is to just use the bear. it takes no effort to run around with bear, clicking teleport as soon as you see an enemy colored dot, and just casting dagon when their hp is low. Because of the low level of effort, perceived impact, and players just not wanting to macro two units, I can see why some would use this strategy. And that's why it's a strategy that doesn't work against a half-competent team.

And let's be honest here: If a team is pushing and you are using your bear to defend, NO ONE is going to attack the bear. They will wipe your teammates off in what is going to be a 4v5 fight since bear won't have enough time to effectively and slowly punish your HP and dagon has a CD. After they wipe your team, your bear is going to do what to defend? As to compared to a Sylla with the same items who can attack as well as also having a bear with rad.

Btw, I disagree with "if we ban this, we'll have to also ban this." It's such a slippery slope fallacy. It's like saying, "If we legalize marijuana, what's stopping them from legalizing cocaine, heroin, etc.," You can legalize one without legalizing the other. If it were up to me, I would ban a sylla "bear only" strategy. But I do understand the pros of it in many situations as well. That's why my opinion on this is that it should be judged on a case-by-case basis. Currently, it seems that the sentiment is you are allowed to use a sylla-only bear strategy and can leave your hero at the fountain and watch while the enemy team destroys your base. I think that can actually lead to more games being ruined than the former.

[Merex]

1) As you mentioned, bear has a high MS - especially when used with Sylla's spell. I've seen players leave the entire lane alone to the bear just because they know they aren't going to get any farm. What happens is the other team ignores the bear, Sylla continues using the bear to farm minions and "push" the lanes by waiting for their own minions to attack towers, while his teammates defend the base and don't end up being able to farm anything because it's already a 4v5 and if they do decide to farm, it puts their team at a disadvantage more-so than it is. You're right; early to mid-game, Sylla's bear with rad is insanely annoying. But no one is arguing against a bear with rad. The underlying argument made by the OP is that a player should be banned if by late in the game (when raxes are getting pushed), Sylla is at the fountain unable to defend.

This is a late-game scenario which wasn't my point behind that.

If the underlying argument is banning player A for refusing to defend the base, then this suggestion is easily archived as it's already against the rules. However, and as it's been going on, if we're arguing the bear-only strat being disallowed on ENT then that's why we are continuing. And again to make my point more clear - The bear-only strategy is integrating any potential you have as a hero into your bear and therefor using that unit and producing all items on-to, that unit. Which also means, that unit is practically you and therefor, that unit is required to defend the base, help push and overall contribute to the team and if that unit is not doing so, that unit is against the rules.

The strategy/method is not the issue here, it's merely just a mix of words at this point. To say the bear doesn't hold enough contributing factors to the team is like saying any hero that falls behind doesn't hold enough factors. My responses are generic because if we're speaking to the game as an entirety and not specific views like such in an eyes of a decent player or an innovative one, the bear honestly holds no real difference to a hero and therefor, as I've been saying, to leave it the way it is.

2) No one said bear holds a grief-like spot. What we've been saying, however, is bear alone is not enough to win the game in many cases. Yes, it'll work vs bad players with no communication. Quite frankly, even the silliest strategies would work against those same players as well. It does not prove that it is a viable strategy to win games consistently.

It's exactly why DotA is a team game. To be able to push as a team, work as a team and defend as a team will result in all around good progression and potentially a victory. If any hero falls off due to no communication, how is that different from the bear? It's starting to become a "generic" thing to specifically bash the bear method simply because of the little experiences both with/against it. But as an entirety, the bear is fine where it stands.

3) I can guarantee a bear running around with rad, dagon, blademail, and whatever else item you can think of will not outperform an Arc with comparable gold (assuming they have the same gold to get their item build).

Again, this wasn't the point of my "comparison". Out-preformance is a weak argument. To say one hero is better than another is both opinionated and unnecessary, every hero holds a unique ability just like the bear does as a unit.

4)This strat is just very lousy from a perspective of trying to win games. It's much more effort to control Sylla and his bear together than it is to just use the bear. it takes no effort to run around with bear, clicking teleport as soon as you see an enemy colored dot, and just casting dagon when their hp is low.

Again.. arguing skill over rules. Isn't there an on-going theme with LC being used that it also requires "no effort" etc? Doesn't mean it's banned because, just like bear, it holds a unique purpose to the game.

I am trying to discuss, in yes a very generic and rule-relating sense, that the bear only strat can either work or it can't. In this case, I'm to believe that pros outweigh the cons if I'm being honest. It's just unnecessary to start to hammering down on unique strategies simply because of (reference; OP) a bad game experience.

Btw, I disagree with "if we ban this, we'll have to also ban this." It's such a slippery slope fallacy. It's like saying, "If we legalize marijuana, what's stopping them from legalizing cocaine, heroin, etc.," You can legalize one without legalizing the other. If it were up to me, I would ban a sylla "bear only" strategy. But I do understand the pros of it in many situations as well. That's why my opinion on this is that it should be judged on a case-by-case basis. Currently, it seems that the sentiment is you are allowed to use a sylla-only bear strategy and can leave your hero at the fountain and watch while the enemy team destroys your base. I think that can actually lead to more games being ruined than the former.

Off topic:
Irrelevant comparison tbh, that was just unneeded.

What is the preferred alternative? If a sylla and his bear are both equipped and die whilst trying to defend how is that different from the bear alone trying to defend? They both put in the same effort. If the bear dies and the sylla with no items, summon on cd and 5-10 levels below everyone else walks out into a team of 5 pushing a rax, what is there to benefit then? It's just another death and it's delaying the possibility of the bear respawning. The only difference to be said here is the potential outcome but again, speaking in a rule-sense, if player x defends with team and it's unsuccessful, then oh well. If player x doesn't defend, they are in violation of rules because then yes, player x did not participate and initially let his team die. Same thing to be said if player x was a sole bear player.

[aimskjs]

If the underlying argument is banning player A for refusing to defend the base, then this suggestion is easily archived as it's already against the rules. However, and as it's been going on, if we're arguing the bear-only strat being disallowed on ENT then that's why we are continuing. And again to make my point more clear - The bear-only strategy is integrating any potential you have as a hero into your bear and therefor using that unit and producing all items on-to, that unit. Which also means, that unit is practically you and therefor, that unit is required to defend the base, help push and overall contribute to the team and if that unit is not doing so, that unit is against the rules.

Bear with rad can't defend base which mean this is against rule.

The strategy/method is not the issue here, it's merely just a mix of words at this point. To say the bear doesn't hold enough contributing factors to the team is like saying any hero that falls behind doesn't hold enough factors. My responses are generic because if we're speaking to the game as an entirety and not specific views like such in an eyes of a decent player or an innovative one, the bear honestly holds no real difference to a hero and therefor, as I've been saying, to leave it the way it is.

the best DOESN'T holds no real difference to a hero no matter what.

Again, this wasn't the point of my "comparison". Out-preformance is a weak argument. To say one hero is better than another is both opinionated and unnecessary, every hero holds a unique ability just like the bear does as a unit.
Again.. arguing skill over rules. Isn't there an on-going theme with LC being used that it also requires "no effort" etc? Doesn't mean it's banned because, just like bear, it holds a unique purpose to the game.

Our focus isn't the comparison but we need to explain why using bear only should be considered as afk greifing with comparison of othe hero and strategy. For example, you would ban me if I play furion with the strategy that I tp the lane near creeps and summon trents then tp back to base and ulti every cooldown without any single attack creep or hero. Also if my furion just sit at fountain and sends trents with ulti to enemy heroes where my team defend, you would ban me. But I can appeal my strategy is unique and it does DPS slowly.

I am trying to discuss, in yes a very generic and rule-relating sense, that the bear only strat can either work or it can't. In this case, I'm to believe that pros outweigh the cons if I'm being honest. It's just unnecessary to start to hammering down on unique strategies simply because of (reference; OP) a bad game experience.

It is not just a bad game experience. It is literally 4v5 outnumbered game without leaver gold. All lanes are pushing by bear. Well if bear can take all cs with rad, it would be nice, but u know that that rad doesn't damage enough to take all cs from the lane. If you are lucky, you will take 50% or bit more than 50% of cs at lane (if you are unlucky its under 30% of cs) which means we waste of farm.

What is the preferred alternative? If a sylla and his bear are both equipped and die whilst trying to defend how is that different from the bear alone trying to defend? They both put in the same effort. If the bear dies and the sylla with no items, summon on cd and 5-10 levels below everyone else walks out into a team of 5 pushing a rax, what is there to benefit then? It's just another death and it's delaying the possibility of the bear respawning. The only difference to be said here is the potential outcome but again, speaking in a rule-sense, if player x defends with team and it's unsuccessful, then oh well. If player x doesn't defend, they are in violation of rules because then yes, player x did not participate and initially let his team die. Same thing to be said if player x was a sole bear player.

Im sorry if this sound like rude to you, but for me this is most stupidest question I have ever. Even if hero and bear both die while defending, sylla does more usefull in fight.

[Merex]

Bear with rad can't defend base which mean this is against rule.

Bear with rad + other items, with his team, can definitely assist in defending the base..? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

the best(<bear? I guess) DOESN'T holds no real difference to a hero no matter what.

How so? It has 6 slots at it's disposal, is given 2700hp and has a relatively fast movespeed. Care to elaborate?

Our focus isn't the comparison but we need to explain why using bear only should be considered as afk greifing with comparison of othe hero and strategy.

How is it considered afk griefing when you're actively pressuring lanes and harassing lower-health heroes/potentially killing them with your bear?

It is not just a bad game experience. It is literally 4v5 outnumbered game without leaver gold. All lanes are pushing by bear. Well if bear can take all cs with rad, it would be nice, but u know that that rad doesn't damage enough to take all cs from the lane. If you are lucky, you will take 50% or bit more than 50% of cs at lane (if you are unlucky its under 30% of cs) which means we waste of farm.

Not sure how you based that analysis, but a bear with rad can cs pretty well in lane pressuring.

Even if hero and bear both die while defending, sylla does more usefull in fight.

Not saying it didn't. We're not arguing performance, we are stating that a bear is perfectly capable of defending period.

[IWinIfyoulose]

"Our focus isn't the comparison but we need to explain why using bear only should be considered as afk greifing with comparison of othe hero and strategy" Agree 100%

Played with zam against this radiance bear. When we killed bear twice (mid-lategame) he stayed in fountain with himself. Then he need to wait ages before he can summon a new bear. Ofc its on cd now so we just need to kill the bear one time. So we kill it over and over, and for every time he stay in fountain waiting for spiritbear. But na, its fine let him ruin for everyone