we need to ban for sylla only bear with rad strategy

[Zeratul]

Bear with rad + other items, with his team, can definitely assist in defending the base..? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

He meant the bear itself cant attack therefore can't defend - Don't try to use the "radiance+ X items" argument, cause it still doens't allow the bear to attack .. plain simple what he meant there

How so? It has 6 slots at it's disposal, is given 2700hp and has a relatively fast movespeed. Care to elaborate?

Again the bear still cant attack/defend - Try comparing a bear 6 slotted without sylla, towards a bear 6 slotted with sylla nearby (the dmg input/tanking will be better)

How is it considered afk griefing when you're actively pressuring lanes and harassing lower-health heroes/potentially killing them with your bear?

Against a noob team, that bear running freely might work and you will probably end the game before anyone can do something about it - Against a decent team, the result of zam/IwinIfYouLose game, is what happens to that syllabear (Bear is dead - Syllabear becomes useless, rendering the game instantly to 4vs5)

Note: Again, no1 is saying that using bear radiance only should be bannable (at least that has been the point from my side) - Rushing radiance on bear to help you farm/gear up is completely acceptable (Not only can you farm with sylla, but also with bear, pressuring, etc.); Using the bear only, and refusing to use sylla, is my main concern here (The bear can't attack on its own, so his entangle + twice the dmg on buildings becomes useless)

Not saying it didn't. We're not arguing performance, we are stating that a bear is perfectly capable of defending period.

So following that idea, i know a lot of heroes that can just simply afk in base as long as they are capable of defending:

Siren -> sends illusions + riptide + radiance - Able to defend
Terrorblade -> uses meta + illu + manta - able to defend
Arc -> Sends his clone with possible necro and manta - able to defend
Furion -> Sends his treants + ulti - able to defend
Phantom lancer - sends manta + radiance + doppleganger (they can juxtapose themselves, creating more illusions - able to defend
Invoker - has 2 elementals, capable of attacking - able to defend
Beastmaster - Can have 2 quillbeasts attacking- able to defend

I think you got the idea by now: If we are just going by the idea that he's capable of "defending" (by defending, you're defining it as capable of preventing creeps push, cause obviously if, for example, a Rhasta pushes with wards, a bear won't defend on its own, while a sylla+bear could easily put a stop to it - see the difference?)

But tbh, i'm done with this topic - I mean you got quite a collection of good players stating and defending the fact that you should use both sylla/bear ingame (not even limiting it to X stage of the game - even defending that radiance bear is okay to farm/gear up), and so far 1 person keeps on trying to find arguments to defend this strategy.

tl;dr

But na, its fine let him ruin for everyone

[aimskjs]

Guess if I make rad on any tank hero and just run around the creeps and don't attack any unit (creep and hero both) entire game, i will be banned. If you disagree with it, i will just do it in pub until someone report me then will see what your judgement for it.

If you want to talk about dagon, i will make it and use dagon only without attack. If you talk about necrobook, i will make it and use it without any single attack. If you talk about MS, i will just get any MS item and run around. That will be same strategy. I will have assist with rad even though i dont attack

[EdgeOfChaos]

Siren -> sends illusions + riptide + radiance - Able to defend
Terrorblade -> uses meta + illu + manta - able to defend
Arc -> Sends his clone with possible necro and manta - able to defend
Furion -> Sends his treants + ulti - able to defend
Phantom lancer - sends manta + radiance + doppleganger (they can juxtapose themselves, creating more illusions - able to defend
Invoker - has 2 elementals, capable of attacking - able to defend
Beastmaster - Can have 2 quillbeasts attacking- able to defend

These are clearly not all the same thing.
For example, Arc Warden can actually use only his clone, when he has divine rapiers, and it's quite a common strategy. If you're suggesting that should be banned, then you lost me.
It's not the same as defending with fire elementals

[Zeratul]

Siren -> sends illusions + riptide + radiance - Able to defend
Terrorblade -> uses meta + illu + manta - able to defend
Arc -> Sends his clone with possible necro and manta - able to defend
Furion -> Sends his treants + ulti - able to defend
Phantom lancer - sends manta + radiance + doppleganger (they can juxtapose themselves, creating more illusions - able to defend
Invoker - has 2 elementals, capable of attacking - able to defend
Beastmaster - Can have 2 quillbeasts attacking- able to defend

These are clearly not all the same thing.
For example, Arc Warden can actually use only his clone, when he has divine rapiers, and it's quite a common strategy. If you're suggesting that should be banned, then you lost me.
It's not the same as defending with fire elementals

I think you got the idea by now: If we are just going by the idea that he's capable of "defending" (by defending, you're defining it as capable of preventing creeps push, cause obviously if, for example, a Rhasta pushes with wards, a bear won't defend on its own, while a sylla+bear could easily put a stop to it - see the difference?)

At least if you're quote me, read the entire post, before writing .. yawn

Simply quoted Av1oN logic of bear can defend - when bear can't attack: All of my mentions can defend as well (meaning that all of these heroes can afk fountain, as long as they defend)

Guess if I make rad on any tank hero and just run around the creeps and don't attack any unit (creep and hero both) entire game, i will be banned. If you disagree with it, i will just do it in pub until someone report me then will see what your judgement for it.

If you want to talk about dagon, i will make it and use dagon only without attack. If you talk about necrobook, i will make it and use it without any single attack. If you talk about MS, i will just get any MS item and run around. That will be same strategy. I will have assist with rad even though i dont attack

Exactly - I know quite a lot of heroes to do the same (Imma start going radiance, travels, euls invoker and max wex for movement speed, and never attack either) - I can also get dagon, necro book if thats the necessary to not be banned.

[EdgeOfChaos]

I read your entire post. I am pointing out that your 'logic' makes no sense. That post sounds like you're arguing with yourself.

Overall, I haven't heard any reasonable argument why it should be banned.

[Merex]

Siren -> sends illusions + riptide + radiance - Able to defend
Terrorblade -> uses meta + illu + manta - able to defend
Arc -> Sends his clone with possible necro and manta - able to defend
Furion -> Sends his treants + ulti - able to defend
Phantom lancer - sends manta + radiance + doppleganger (they can juxtapose themselves, creating more illusions - able to defend
Invoker - has 2 elementals, capable of attacking - able to defend
Beastmaster - Can have 2 quillbeasts attacking- able to defend

I think you got the idea by now: If we are just going by the idea that he's capable of "defending" (by defending, you're defining it as capable of preventing creeps push, cause obviously if, for example, a Rhasta pushes with wards, a bear won't defend on its own, while a sylla+bear could easily put a stop to it - see the difference?)

Agreeing with EdgeOfChaos, the Arc illusion is the only fair comparison to be made here.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself just because people here merely "dislike" the bear strategy. The bottom line I'm trying to make is while bear is a unique strategy and may not be favorable to some, it's still within it's right to be used given how the bear is able to equip/use items (while a quillbeast for example cannot) on top of that is given a rather large HP pool.

Going to conclude my arguments here as-well since this has come to an endless back-and-forth cycle. The strategy is fine to use in my opinion and does provide enough contributions to be used in games.

That being said, I don't see this being 100% ban-able.

[EdgeOfChaos]

I believe what everyone's saying is that it would be judged on a case-by-case basis. And I think he just said that it's *not* the same thing anyways.

The only thing that will help you win a suggestion is arguing your side in a convincing way. Crying, threatening to ruin games, etc. just makes you look silly and makes normal people not want to agree with you. I don't even care about the outcome, I don't do this strategy ever, I just call out bad logic when I see it.

Invoker with radiance and not attacking is the same as the bear

Who said this? I don't think anyone did.

[Zeratul]

I believe what everyone's saying is that it would be judged on a case-by-case basis. And I think he just said that it's *not* the same thing anyways.

The only thing that will help you win a suggestion is arguing your side in a convincing way. Crying, threatening to ruin, etc. just makes you look silly and makes normal people not want to agree with you. I don't even care about the outcome, I don't do this strategy ever, I just call out bad logic when I see it.

What is basically said is that using a bear (a unit, not a hero) that cant attack, but only use items is allowed, and that ENT deems this acceptable (he has made it very clear from the start).

Again how is it threatning to ruin when im doing the same as the bear? Either it is allowed to not attack and not use your hero, or it isn't and its bannable - decide yourself.

[Zeratul]

Invoker with radiance and not attacking is the same as the bear

Who said this? I don't think anyone did.

Again, enlighten me then:

Can bear attack if sylla isn't around? No - and ENT/Av1oN defends the fact that sylla can stay afk at fountain as long as you use the bear, therefore invoker with radiance does the same as bear (and ur not forced to attack, since the bear can't attack either).

Bear can use items? Congratz, invoker can too

Therefore the logic is the same applied: Invoker can use radiance and items, and not attack (just like the bear), and you cant ban it (since bear not attacking is allowed - Remember that the bear cant attack without sylla nearby).

Now i wanna see your "normal" logic.

Anyways, this is just circling since ENT already made their position very clear (when the previous brq from beerlord got overruled, and their ruling on it remains exactly the same aka not bannable), so when brqs start popping up, we will see how it ends.

[EdgeOfChaos]

Zeratul, I know you're not dumb. You know that it's different. Quit your trolling.

No decisions will be made until further examination by the man @DivineRape @not2000elo (Beta tester , hired by IceFrog (pre-fame), AREM only player, former CIA, possibly created the Syllabear concept).

+1 to this for sure
This is why I love ent forum

[Zeratul]

Zeratul, I know you're not dumb. You know that it's different. Quit your trolling.

It is not different - The concept is exactly the same: 2 units (Invoker/Bear), using items (necrobook/radiance/dagon), and not attacking (Both purposely - since you could use sylla, but you don't,and it's acceptable), so your argument is weak Edge.

This is simply proving that if that strategy is allowed, then this one is also allowed - and you can't call it different, it's exactly the same.

[EdgeOfChaos]

You're trying to make a comparison between two things that are completely unrelated. Bear and Invoker have pretty much nothing in common. The only hero who is close to Bear is arc warden, and even then it's a big stretch.

Listen to yourself. You're making no sense.

[Zeratul]

You're trying to make a comparison between two things that are completely unrelated. Bear and Invoker have pretty much nothing in common. The only hero who is close to Bear is arc warden, and even then it's a big stretch.

Listen to yourself. You're making no sense.

Again, explain why then:

Using bear with items (who cant attack), and refusing to use syllabear - Basically you're running with a unit that can use items, but cant attack (which is exactly the same described as invoker)

[Astros]

1) If Invoker just uses items but doesn't cast spells, he should be banned. But this has the same effect as bear, doesn't it? Running around, doing nothing but using items. How useful is that in a team fight?
2) Sylla-bear involves the macroing of two components. This bear does not expire after a set period of time. Not all summons are the same and not all characters who can create multiple units to control are the same. When Naga can summon illusions that last until they are dead, let me know. Last I checked, Arc/TB/PL's illusions are NOT permanent. They serve completely different objectives. Since their ability to summon or use illusions is not permanent, they are compensated with other skillsets. Sylla-bear is designed to be used as complimentary pieces to each other.
3) Zeratul is right. If you're using Sylla and the only action you take is to macro the bear (which has zero skills in a team fight when not with Sylla) and can't physically attack either, you're basically saying it's okay for me to mimic this same strategy except using the hero as the "bear." Sylla for dota 1 purposes isn't designed to just be a bear-only strategy. There is no logic to defend it. If your only logic is that it worked vs 5 pubs in which their collective k/d average is .7, great for you. But some games aren't like that. Some games, you're going up against a team where you need to do more than just run around with your bear like you are Usain Bolt. And people keep saying it's a "strategy." How about we test the strategy in an actual game vs good players? Let's see that strategy. Because it just sounds like you guys are confusing creativity with strategy. They aren't the same thing. And this "If you deny a player to be creative, you are removing a large aspect of the game." No one is denying a player to be creative. They are simply saying your strategy sucks and you should find a different one. If Rhasta gets buriza, we can all agree it's "creative" in its own way but also a terrible strategy. And if someone can update the map to where Sylla can use scepter and allow the bear to work the way it does in DotA 2, I would be all up for it. You can ban one thing but not ban the rest. You can ban an assault rifle and not ban a pistol. No idea why it's even being discussed in regards to, "Don't ban this or you will also ban this." No, not really.
4) Through it all, no one has answered: How effective is this strategy in a team fight? Like I've said, you can play vs pubs whos only teamplay discussion throughout the game consists of, "You suck blue, trash garbage noob" and beat them big time. Anyone with fingers playing any hero can beat a team like that. But how is bear-only going to do in team fights against a team that knows how to work together? And that's where the Sylla has to start adjusting his game and realize that a bear only strategy doesn't work and they should move away from the fountain and find ways to contribute before his team loses.

[Astros]

You're trying to make a comparison between two things that are completely unrelated. Bear and Invoker have pretty much nothing in common. The only hero who is close to Bear is arc warden, and even then it's a big stretch.

Listen to yourself. You're making no sense.

You're not understanding logic. You're arguing a completely different thing here.

Take Invoker out of this. What is the bear? A 2.5k walking, high MS unit that can't physically attack but can use items (which he doesn't have a large mana pool for anyways so you will need to build some mana items as well) and can blink back to sylla.

How is it much different than let's say, an AM with the SAME items, refusing to physically attack? There isn't any difference other than the fact the bear can blink back to Sylla (when not attacked) but if he's caught in a team fight, he's dead. At least Magina can blink away. It's a 2.5k HP bodybag that a good team would ignore and push to end the game.

And in no way is ANYONE saying that this is ban-able. If it works, it works. But there's a point in the game where everyone should realize that it is not working and maybe they should transfer some of those items onto Sylla and start playing a different style. And the problem with that is, it usually ends up being too late. Sylla is massively underleveled so his base stats suck and you get incompatible items that aren't really going to help with how Sylla should be played. So what they do is just give up and continue using the bear and not making any changes. Or you can keep doing this strategy and then wonder why your team hates you.

Btw, let's compare Arc and bear for a second. Arc can kill heroes quite easily, the clone gives zero gold when destroyed, the CD is lower on Arc summoning his illusion, and he's just flat-out more annoying late in the game than Winnie the Pooh. Late in the game, I'd hope to catch bear with my team. In fact, it would probably be a good strategy. Wait for your lane to push, hide with your teammates, and I guarantee the bear will come thinking he will push your rax or something. Kill the bear and push. The worst case scenario is now they summon the bear again but it's on CD for two minutes. Who the hell wants to bother chasing an illusion of Arc pushing a lane? There's no incentive to do so at all. You don't get any gold from the illusion and there's a possibility that he can kill your hero. I also said Arc can kill heroes easily late into the game. This is only if he is casting spells or physically attacking. If he's just standing there not using any spells or his high damage physical attacks, why would anyone care to defend? It would just be two necromancers attacking the tower. How impactful is that compared to completely losing a teammate and playing 4v5 team fights?