2s

[HazarDous]

I dont say you do that on purpose, i just bring that 1 incident as an example, if you have a private hosted game and you take a player from the open discord signing 7/8 to start your 2s wihich is 3/4 at that moment that imo is simply wrong and unfair. I see your way though due to your edit and i misinterpreted what u said i guess

Well, I remember that situation rather clearly. There was one 4s 15 minutes in, when we had 3/4 for a 2v2. I was asked to abort lobby to allow 4s to start, and so I did. At which point the 4s barely had any signed players due to 4 people 'forfeiting' their game by effectively leaving the game rather than selling, which caused dodo to stay bugged in the game thanks to GProxy.

That's when tariq decided to play 2s with us, remembering to unsign only several minutes after having already joined our lobby, subsequently making you believe we had stolen him amidst your attempt to start a 4s lobby... If you want to qualify this as 'stealing from your 4s lobby', be my guest.


Pertaining to this specific situation, you can argue all you want that the 2s lobby was the cause of 4s failing to start, or you can blame those who 'forfeited' contrary to the norms, causing a ~15 minute wait before any of them could sign. Nevertheless, I have yet to see you criticize someone who refuses to play 2s when there are 3 people waiting for a +1. [I believe] you are wrong to claim that we vouch based on 4s or that 2s is less balanced. We vouch someone based upon their building abilities first and foremost. The rest will simply follow (game intelligence, anticipating sends, calling, etc.), because while I agree 2s and 4s tactics can differ, let's not fool ourselves; anyone who's good enough for LIHL from his 2s level will be good enough for LIHL in 4s. The contrary is not always true.

With regards to game balance, I believe at the very least 2s' is as much balanced as 4s if not more balanced. King skills are all equal in 2s, while we all know that is not the case in 4s. Yes, rolls can have more impact in 2v2, but you can (almost) always counter outroll with good calls. So even if you don't have holders or EA/Turr/Blaster, you can avoid losing heals or the game on levels 7 and 12 for instance, by either preemptively strike to waste enemy's lumber (not to mention it is impossible to die 12 in 2s with good king, contrary to 4s where you can have full king, 2.8k value on 2 lanes, and still die.

Besides, let's not forget one's personal choice. If someone rather play 2s than 4s, it isn't for you to decide aside from your prerogative to get rid of 2s for LIHL games.

#############################################

Anyway, I'm digressing from original topic.

a) If you want to avoid a 2s lobby from delaying/blocking a 4s lobby, the best option is to enable simultaneous 2s and 4s signing, while judging rare situations of abuse on a case-by-case basis by mods (upon report).

b) If you want to separate 2s from 4s, the 'only' way is to straight out ban 2s from LIHL, due to technical implications of separating both ELO's. I would nevertheless make a point that it takes arguably more skill to play 2s than 4s.

c) If you're mad that people play 2s over 4s, keep in mind that it is their personal choice. Some simply prefer 2s over 4s and would not sign for 4s anyway, the very same way some people do not play 2s even when 3/4 signed.

d) If you're angry that fiji and I stack teams, either make separate topic to force !sp upon every single 2s hosted. Yes, 2s over votebalance + rename because ELO votebalance only (barely) sorts itself out in 4s games. That is also within LIHL Staff's prerogatives. Another option is simply to challenge us if you consider yourself 'good'.

[smokedope123]

Why not just make it so that we are able to sign to a 2s or a 4s at the same time. No one will block anyone, nor anyone has to wait for the other game to start and people will just sign to the lobby they want to.

[archol]

2s might be a teamkill mode if you dont know what to do - the reason why 4s is popular, because its less demanding to play (suicide, someone calling, team effort - thus the responsibility is shared towards 4 players than only 2) and due that easier. Thats why i always try (!) to help new(er) players to get into the mode (sorry BigM) or let them pick their teammate to make their 2s experience easier.

Thus why most people hate 2s, because of skill and mainly experience differences - and if you teamkill there, you really teamkill hard compared to 4s

Few days ago i and my teammate had pure teamkill rolls (saber on him, and warchief/skeleton archers on me) against archer/malf/sea giant on n1ll3 and his teammate and both had same king spells, and we still won that more or less quite easy, mainly because of their bad calls. And i saw enough players winning against 2 archers, 2 yggs etc. too with shit towers, against me or with me.

First of all, most of you write we cant get an 4s ongoing because a 2s is blocking us - so in that case there would be 8 players, so what prevents you in that case to start a 2s too?

So why others should be forced to wait x minutes (up to 1 hour) to start a 4s - while in the meantime you could easily get 1-2 2s or even a 3s going? And those who wanted to wait for that ongoing 4s to end, would have waited anyways (in most cases)?

I can only tell from myself, that the only time we (Fiji and myself) forced a 2s because Fiji had to leave soon for work (thus couldnt wait for a 4s) and he really wanted a rematch too. But mainly we dont force a 2s, and instead start a 3s/4s for not letting players out - but here lies the next contradicition. Although there are 6-7 players, people rather not want 2s/3s (!) and want a 4s ongoing and force the other players to wait for a 4s. I can only talk from my perspective as i dont know what Fiji/Haza are doing in their cases.

Yes, Fiji and Haza do stack most of their games - it might be unfair, but so what? As long its not forbidden, its allowed, even if it leads to an uproar from (few) players or seems unfair/abusing. And those who play against them, can also ask for a normal mode, sp! or make even teams - no one is forbidding it.

[Anda]

I dont say you do that on purpose, i just bring that 1 incident as an example, if you have a private hosted game and you take a player from the open discord signing 7/8 to start your 2s wihich is 3/4 at that moment that imo is simply wrong and unfair. I see your way though due to your edit and i misinterpreted what u said i guess

Well, I remember that situation rather clearly. There was one 4s 15 minutes in, when we had 3/4 for a 2v2. I was asked to abort lobby to allow 4s to start, and so I did. At which point the 4s barely had any signed players due to 4 people 'forfeiting' their game by effectively leaving the game rather than selling, which caused dodo to stay bugged in the game thanks to GProxy.

That's when tariq decided to play 2s with us, remembering to unsign only several minutes after having already joined our lobby, subsequently making you believe we had stolen him amidst your attempt to start a 4s lobby... If you want to qualify this as 'stealing from your 4s lobby', be my guest.

That might be true, I didnt see how and when the situation developed, all i saw was the outcome, and that indeed looks fishy and abusive from the outsiders perspective that is waiting for the game to start. We simply didnt have that information, maybe tariq should have said something then to clarify it. Might be the case that this is just an unfortunate misunderstanding. My concern is aswell that it looked like you choose tariq and dont give all the other people from the signing lobby the chance to play. As i said, that is how it appeared to be.

Nevertheless, I have yet to see you criticize someone who refuses to play 2s when there are 3 people waiting for a +1.

4s are completely different from 2s, ive helped out starting a 2s several times even though disliking it, and the game is completely different. What to call out if nobody wants to fill in for a gaming experience that is vastly different from the *standard* game we play?
There are also players like me that help a game start, even though they are crappy at it due to no experience in the particular mode.

[I believe] you are wrong to claim that we vouch based on 4s or that 2s is less balanced. We vouch someone based upon their building abilities first and foremost. The rest will simply follow (game intelligence, anticipating sends, calling, etc.), because while I agree 2s and 4s tactics can differ, let's not fool ourselves; anyone who's good enough for LIHL from his 2s level will be good enough for LIHL in 4s. The contrary is not always true.

I completely disagree with that. Its a different game, u can hardly compare it to 4s.Everything is different in 2s, its like saying dota only mid is the same as a 5v5 game imo.

With regards to game balance, I believe at the very least 2s' is as much balanced as 4s if not more balanced. King skills are all equal in 2s, while we all know that is not the case in 4s. Yes, rolls can have more impact in 2v2, but you can (almost) always counter outroll with good calls. So even if you don't have holders or EA/Turr/Blaster, you can avoid losing heals or the game on levels 7 and 12 for instance, by either preemptively strike to waste enemy's lumber (not to mention it is impossible to die 12 in 2s with good king, contrary to 4s where you can have full king, 2.8k value on 2 lanes, and still die.

I am not active enough in 2s to judge this completely, i just remember the one talk i had with broud that he does not balance the game for 2s, there was a discussion if malf is 2 imbalanced somewhere in forum.

Besides, let's not forget one's personal choice. If someone rather play 2s than 4s, it isn't for you to decide aside from your prerogative to get rid of 2s for LIHL games.

I dont want to get rid of 2s in lihl, it was always there and it has a place, same as 3s. What i am worried about is that i get complaints and feedback that this 2s gaming is stalling 4s lobbies from happening and **killing** LIHL. Would be foolish to take those accusations lightly
#############################################

Anyway, I'm digressing from original topic.

a) If you want to avoid a 2s lobby from delaying/blocking a 4s lobby, the best option is to enable simultaneous 2s and 4s signing, while judging rare situations of abuse on a case-by-case basis by mods (upon report).

b) If you want to separate 2s from 4s, the 'only' way is to straight out ban 2s from LIHL, due to technical implications of separating both ELO's. I would nevertheless make a point that it takes arguably more skill to play 2s than 4s.

c) If you're mad that people play 2s over 4s, keep in mind that it is their personal choice. Some simply prefer 2s over 4s and would not sign for 4s anyway, the very same way some people do not play 2s even when 3/4 signed.

d) If you're angry that fiji and I stack teams, either make separate topic to force !sp upon every single 2s hosted. Yes, 2s over votebalance + rename because ELO votebalance only (barely) sorts itself out in 4s games. That is also within LIHL Staff's prerogatives. Another option is simply to challenge us if you consider yourself 'good'.

I dont think anyone rly cares or is mad that your elomanaging in 2s, that is your own personal choice. Just dont call it something else when it is clear nr 1 and 2 playing 15 15 games together in team is the hardest elo management i can imagine?
There is nothing wrong with it aswell. If you like 2s and you like to play it with fiji, that is your own choice. People can ofc play whatever they want and what mode they want.
Common decdency was a good input from Fiji, maybe those 2 kind of players ( prefeering 2s or 4s) just need to look a bit on the other groups side. Ive seen archol filling in for 4s plenty of times cause we needed +1 and i think also people are willing to help out make 2s, maybe just not if its against haza/fiji stack ?


TK quotation from myself, u can see which are my comments i hope ^^

[point]

the rule is clear in this case : All games must !votebalanced, unless it is a !challenge game, or all players agree to a different set-up.
so i dont see any problems that haza and fiji stacks with each other to gain elo from beginners
but imo its common sense that this is looks kinda unmannered for someone cuz top1 and top2 players stack with each other and only
if they feel like its honored to winning season like that - then let them be proud of it
the other way to avoid noise about such things is not join this games if you feel that unfair

[nicolai123]

Tbh i think the system is fine as it is now, if people don't want to get stomped by unfair teams, they can just decide not to agree to it. The "problem" of team stacking in 2s is only a problem because the stackers enemies agrees to it, which means it isn't really a problem, only for the people who are jealous of haza bigdick elo.

As for the problem of blocking 4s lobby with 2s, i think it has always been common sense to swap people in when there are additional people who wants to play even though the lobby started out as 2s. Rly this is a useless topic and the system works well as it is now.

[FadingSuns]

1) I dont care if Haza wins season, i say more, i would be glad of it

2) I dont care that Haza plays 2s stacked with fiji if rivals agree with it

3) I do care that Haza host a 2s and wont swap in other ppl interested to play -> that happens quite often. Basic manners to swap in obs interested on play

4) I do care that Haza forces Jihad in 4s vs a 900 elo player, i recently had a dispute with him cuz he wanted jihad archol and forced fiji on his team, ending a 28/2 elo lobby

5) I do care when haza invents a rule out of nothing, saying that if u agree jihad on discord it must be jihad, even if it was ppl signed for 35 mins, he signs last and calls jihad on discord chat -> rule is explicit, game must be vb unless ALL agree to not vb.

[archol]

4) I do care that Haza forces Jihad in 4s vs a 900 elo player, i recently had a dispute with him cuz he wanted jihad archol and forced fiji on his team, ending a 28/2 elo lobby.

For his defense as far i remember it wasnt Haza. I gave Fiji (as far i remember) the first 3 picks because im leading 2-1 against him in 4s jihad, although he leads against me in 2s rofl, and i never cared about my teammates (how bad or good they are) - and i dunno why you and da_pwnerer already surrender before we even started the game. You make yourself look weak(er), there were enough occasions where stacked teams lost against low elo bobs (including 1200 players).

Just have more faith in you, start improving (in all terms like building, calling, kinging etc. (not against you, its mainly for all), no one is perfect) and you will more games in the future again.

I was like you 2-3 months ago after i came back i thought i stomp most of the players due my past (and went straight to bottom, although i thought i was never guilty - it was mainly the others), i relied too much on the top players calling although in the end it was bad in most cases, and started to train again (private) to relearn all towers (and took ilocos/fiji as guideline when i had questions regarding new tower/levels/map), although i would have never do it - but in the end you must see that everyone has faults, and starting to relearn the callings, forseeing etc. - and most here as they are too proud to see that their also fault too (especially godlike who relies on his mega prime x years ago).

Yeah sometimes, its the others when they teamkill, but if you get better the chances that you carry a game is more likely than to get carried,

If the skill gap is close then its mainly about the towers, king spell, luck and especially right calls .

[FadingSuns]

Im not scared at all. And no, i remember perfectly it was haza and not fiji calling the jihad. I generally dont disagree a jihad if its done in 2 cases:

1) after a hard fight
2) vs the 2 biggest elo in lobby

In that explicit game i called that haza only do jihad to stack with fiji in 4s for 15 elo, making a quite unfair lobby. And he even recognized that it was indeed his purpose.

Jihad for fun is rlly a lame thing, but jihad with that goal is purely not lihl spirit. Moreover when there is ppl in lobby that dont want it. As i said, if all agree then ok, but that was not the case at all, and he still pushed hard for it, until i warned i would post it, idk why would he make me go to that point, should be common sense and its a fken rule. Maybe the most clear rule we got.

[archol]

Offtopic:

Spoiler!

Though after reading that i remember something regarding Haza, rather negative.

I gave someone my spot in 4s, and then someone had to leave thus leaving 1 more spot again. I asked 3 times to get my spot back as it was free .

Then Haza took it (i was alt + tabbing or toilet, cant remember), in the lobby chat afterwards i saw he spammed all the time more or less to get that spot - i didnt had the chance to answer or even react because it started instantly, and after it started i even wrote Anda (who was in the same game) if that its normal that he got priority. Now you can say thats also the owner fault too to let this pass, but still shows some flaws behaviourwise. I didnt care much at all, but i thought it was not fair for sure

PS: But in the past i banned someone few days for that as far i remember as it got reported, as it is unmannered behaviour

[HazarDous]

I'm going to answer this one time and one time only; @archol @fadingsungs

More or less off-topic, considering there is no real topic of discussion ~~

Spoiler!

If you want to throw accusations about abuse, you're better back it off with substantial evidence, otherwise those are mere slanderous statements. I will not answer those further, nor will I tolerate them.

n that explicit game i called that haza only do jihad to stack with fiji in 4s for 15 elo, making a quite unfair lobby. And he even recognized that it was indeed his purpose.

When did I recognize anything? Please back that up.

http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/dow ... 954351.txt

Code: Select all

[Ace_of_Spades]: noone
[ZTX)Fiji]: anyone agaisnt jihad ?
[Ace_of_Spades]: just go
[archol]: its 2-1
[HazarDous]: who
[archol]: for me
[HazarDous]: vs who
[ZTX)Fiji]: archol vs me
[Crey]: dont vb
[archol]: so fiji can tie today!
[HazarDous]: welp
################################# Teams get picked.
[Ace_of_Spades]: wants
[Ace_of_Spades]: jihad
[inQ]: between who?
[Ace_of_Spades]: jsut stop it
[Ace_of_Spades]: vb
[ZTX)Fiji]: me vs archol niggas
[Ace_of_Spades]: no
[Ace_of_Spades]: we dont want it
[archol]: u must give fiji some hope
[Ace_of_Spades]: go vb
[HazarDous]: what's bs is that u wait which team ure in to veto
[Crey]: it was announced 2 mins before
[System]: Rehost was successful on at least one realm!
[Crey]: noone was against
[HazarDous]: ^
[da_pwnerer]: ace veto
[da_pwnerer]: so
[da_pwnerer]: what we do
[archol]: ace is against bc he fear loss
[archol]: xD
[HazarDous]: he was here when they called jihad
[Ace_of_Spades]: just dont make this tk teams
[HazarDous]: yet didn't veto
[Ace_of_Spades]: im against stack for fun
[da_pwnerer]: well
[HazarDous]: i'm not rdy to recognize his veto now
[Ace_of_Spades]: yes
[da_pwnerer]: you have to veto in first place
[HazarDous]: reason I haven't started yet is I don't want forum war also
[HazarDous]: but rly that veto is pure autism
[Ace_of_Spades]: ill for sure post this

3) I do care that Haza host a 2s and wont swap in other ppl interested to play -> that happens quite often. Basic manners to swap in obs interested on play

I can bring up examples of me, swapping myself out in order to let people who join the 2s lobby play 3s (I don't want to 3s). Can you bring examples of me refusing to do so despite there being more than one player joining lobby? I thought so.

I expect an apology from you, Ace. You should know better than to throw groundless accusations like that.

Then Haza took it (i was alt + tabbing)

http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/dow ... 954416.txt

Those are my only two admin (!) commands from the lobby:

[HazarDous]: !roll
[HazarDous]: !votebalance

I was busy with the mess in the lobby, and really, I didn't take you seriously with your request to hear a joke for a spot..

[FadingSuns]

Lol???? Haza u just lost the north and u should not be ruling this topic since ur involved on it...

This isnt even a report, we just sharing impressions and situations that we lived, the fact that i dont have/dont want to look for proves doesnt mean it didnt happen.

If i was repirting u for it i agree i need a prove but this isnt a report so idk why u even deleting half of my post.

Nowadays we cant have a discussion on forum without "proves"?Wtf this became man?

[FadingSuns]

Btw, the day we were 7 ppl signed for 4s and u manually hosted a 2s:

1) u trying to tell that if 4 obs would join the 2s u would swap in?

-> then why u dont sign to 4s?
-> if ur answrr is yes (i dont believe it but ok) what would happen to the ppl signed to the 4s that could not join 2s in time? they get sniped?

2) why if we made it on purpose that u cannot start 2s nd 4s at same time to avoid precisely this, u are the only special guy that can do it with ur power abuse? are u more special or rules dont affect u?

3) u even took tariq from our 4s lobby making it end on everyone unsign, dont u feel any shame by it? u dont fken care about making 5 ppl going 1200 so u can play ur shit 2s? is this what lihl will become? is this rlly what u want?

Me and many other players have seen u going 2s when more than 4 ppl want to play. Didnt u read psyclone, crey thanking him, anda said he received several complains about it... etc.

My view is majority thinks ine thing and u think another, now the real question -> does lihl need to adapt to ur desires? or u will adapt to what majority wants?

[HazarDous]

Anyone can host LIHL games, with or without the bot including yourself. I don't see you crying when I host games manually because the discord bot is dead.

I suggest you re-read my post, it already answered every single one of your concerns. You just don't want to realize that some people do not want to play 3s or 4s.

I'm still waiting for an apology with regard to your claims about the archol+fiji challenge, for which you were proven to be a blatant liar.

owadays we cant have a discussion on forum without "proves"?Wtf this became man?

You've a tendency to start witch hunts on the forums, in the likes of multiple unvouch requests against vendeta, or this very specific topic. Until you learn how to have a discussion without slandering other people in the process, then it is within my prerogatives to censor you.

[FadingSuns]

Lol u wont have any apologize unless u reduce ur tone. Nice job twisting things to appear the victim, rlly poor...