Can we have a discussion on worker pulling?

[XGDeath3]

So - worker pulling. What the heck is up with that, amirite? I'd like to have a small discussion on this rule: http://wiki.entgaming.net/index.php?title=EntGaming:CWRules.

What is it?
Worker pulling is the ability to draw units towards your builder instead of the normal targeting. This happens because of some quirk in the WC3 engine which assigns a MASSIVE priority to a worker that is doing his job instead of idling around.

What is it useful for?
Pulling can be useful for a number of things:

• To win a lane early on in a deadlock situation.
• To swing a lane in a deadlock situation.
• To save a base from a large stack, especially in the case of top lane.
• To win a rush, especially with Great Wall pulling.
• To allow a skilled player to ascertain an advantage by using a game mechanic.

History
Pulling had been a major part of the game in earlier versions. The game always had some gimmick or trick: Trapping units to appear later, deactivating lanes to allow a swing to hit towers more quickly and restore balance, worker pulling, various rushes. Pulling got a weirdly bad rap somewhat recently (last ~3 years?) I can only speculate on the reason why, but some vocal and influential players agreed to make it a ban-able offense. This presents a weird situation though: What's the difference between repairing a tower with "s" commands issued every second or so and pulling? In a defensive sense, repairing IS pulling, but if you stop command in between repairing, you juggle unit aggro AND repair. Are you pulling because you are not freely letting your workers die? Now this might be an extreme example and not the use case that was responsible for the rule.

So lets talk about the reason it was implemented. In my opinion, it was implemented because latency negatively affected certain players and other players were too lazy to attempt pulling. If we take the first reason as valid, then I ask why faster paced games are not affected? If we take the second as valid, then why are we not forcing players to learn? This is a hard rule to police and I don't think it should exist.

But, I would like to hear others thoughts on the matter. Please post here and let me know what you think.



Thank you,
Mac

[Lemninas]

The interesting thing is that, in the new map Civiliznations is working on, towers will automatically regenerate, building inside lanes will be disabled, and all worker aggro will be removed completely, which speaks volumes about the opinion on pulling of one of the game's biggest moderators.

"To allow a skilled player to ascertain an advantage by using a game mechanic."
I agree with the sentiment that it's a mechanic present within the logic of the game, and that it shouldn't be policed the way it is if it isn't so gamebreaking.

Playing the devils advocate here: how interesting would it be to have it back? I have no experience with how it was in earlier versions, but it seems like if you dont pull every wave on mid and bot when you're actively fighting them, you would just be at a disadvantage. It would become an integral mechanic of the game, similar to the way that learning how to aim in a shooter or not getting supply blocked in a game of Starcraft is fundamentally tied into the experience of the game. So then, the question would be, would this be an interesting core mechanic to occupy your attention? Maybe those "vocal and influential players" spoke up because they thought it would be a more fun experience to focus solely on the original mechanic of efficiently diverting resources back and forth, not because anyone is "too lazy."

In a perfect world, we'd have different game modes for these kinds of differing preferences. Just another reason to lament not having a big enough community...

[Quetra]

Pulling, especially within the first ticks, creates a situation where you can abuse a game mechanic to allow you to win a lane with next to no value even if your opponent heavily invested in it. The only way to counter this is to pull yourself, so pulling doesn't exactly open up any diverse strategies. It creates an unfair advantage for players who know about it making the game harder for new players. It adds an extra element to the game but not a balanced one, nor a good one. I would not like to go back to kciv where pulling is used the whole game.

What's the difference between repairing a tower with "s" commands issued every second or so and pulling? In a defensive sense, repairing IS pulling, but if you stop command in between repairing, you juggle unit aggro AND repair. Are you pulling because you are not freely letting your workers die? Now this might be an extreme example and not the use case that was responsible for the rule.

I was banned for exactly that before, actually:

@Civiliznations If you want to repair, then do it when no units are nearby or repair the building with the risk of getting killed.
Time stamp 19:15+ was rather obvious. Repairing half a second just to stop and toggle it over and over is indeed pulling/stalling.

Warning ban (36h) enforced.

Removing pulling entirely will fix all the ambiguity within the rule. As Lemninas said, in the next version worker pulling is removed. Workers are invulnerable, cannot repair towers, and cannot leave the base. This has the dual purpose of removing pulling and towering/walling etc within lanes. It's regrettable it will remove the camp block strategy but I think it's worth it. The game will be much more dynamic without these strategies, with every lane needing to be fought over throughout the game depending on situation.

[Lemninas]

It's regrettable it will remove the camp block strategy but I think it's worth it.

What if you allowed workers in lane but not in the enemies' base, and prevented towers and defensive structures from being built in the lane?

A side effect would be seeing enemy camps for free, which could perhaps be mitigated by only allowing workers to travel up to the center of a lane. You couldn't block all 3 circles of a lane, but it would be a nice compromise.

[Quetra]

What if you allowed workers in lane but not in the enemies' base, and prevented towers and defensive structures from being built in the lane?

A side effect would be seeing enemy camps for free, which could perhaps be mitigated by only allowing workers to travel up to the center of a lane. You couldn't block all 3 circles of a lane, but it would be a nice compromise.

I thought about it but with invulnerable worker being able to replace blocker camps whenever, it has the potential to be quite obnoxious, you can stall for a long time.

[Lemninas]

I thought about it but with invulnerable worker being able to replace blocker camps whenever, it has the potential to be quite obnoxious, you can stall for a long time.

But each block camp costs 50 gold, or maybe less if you use food markets. And stalling would allow your opponent to build a wave which could potentially be dangerous. So wouldn't the cost balance it out?

Also, there's always heavy-handed solutions, like limiting a player to building one block camp every 60 seconds or so.

[BiBi169]

I had a game earlier today where pulling significantly impacted the result of my game. My enemy mid blocked mid with a half built camp and used that camp to pull creeps non-stop when my bot player built obelisk in mid, which secured his food.

My mid player sneakily upgraded several camps in one tick 2 mins later, but the enemy mid fell back to his pulling strategy to ensure he pushes that wave while he upgraded several camps to prevent us from getting food.

In a normal game of civ wars where there's no pulling involved, melee units are better in mid. However, since this guy pulled twice just 4 minutes into the game, my mid player had no choice but to wait out a few minutes before getting archers just to prevent the enemy mid from pulling. (Everytime he aggros against an archer, his builder gets hit once)

If pulling was acceptable in this game, the entire meta in the game will change, because nothing stops you from blocking the 2nd/3rd food resource early on, and then pulling melee units non-stop to secure food early on. The first upgrade in mid is always savage/axeman/spearman/horseman for good reason, unless you need fire archers because the enemy mid somehow built a tower in mid. However, if pulling is allowed, I foresee everyone rushing 1 archer every game just to prevent the enemy mid from pulling. After all, researching archery allows you to get raiders so it isn't such a bad idea to rush archery.

Later on in this same game of mine, my enemy mid AND top both pulled non-stop. I had 3 longboats from my mid, and we most certainly could have locked the lane for several more ticks had they not pulled. However, since they pulled, the lane swung pretty quickly, but I did not pull when the lane swung for fear of getting banned. Because of this, my team lost lots of income in the early game for no real reason. When my lane swung, since I knew for sure my opponents were just going to pull again, I had to tell my mid to disable his longboats since they will be useless anyway. So here's what happens when pulling is allowed. There's zero value in investing in top early game simply because you won't ever lock the lane for more than 2 minutes, because the enemy is just going to pull until their lane swings. Lighthouse becomes a useless wonder, and noone will ever build more than 2 raiders in top, because anything more is just a waste of resources.

In short, if pulling is allowed, the first 5 minutes of the game will revolve around pulling in mid to secure food more efficiently. You can spend your gold in top and simply deact to re-invest in mid while pulling in mid to delay enemy units (unless they have archers in mid). Top truly becomes a lane which swings permanently because your towers kill the raiders/longboats and your workers stand on a cliff to pull the melee units non-stop so you swing even if you have way less boats than your opponents. In fact, I would probably get an additional worker to juggle the creeps between two cliffs. Why bother spending 800 gold on a pente if I could spend 75 gold to ensure I swing my lane easily every 2-3 minutes?

Worker pulling is just dumb.

[Lemninas]

Top truly becomes a lane which swings permanently because your towers kill the raiders/longboats and your workers stand on a cliff to pull the melee units non-stop so you swing even if you have way less boats than your opponents. In fact, I would probably get an additional worker to juggle the creeps between two cliffs. Why bother spending 800 gold on a pente if I could spend 75 gold to ensure I swing my lane easily every 2-3 minutes?

The game would just further emphasize swinging top lane back and forth. It's already really hard to lock top; it's not necessarily bad if it becomes impossible with good micro from the enemy.

Remember that you can still market top on the swings and deactivate markets when it's not captured, and you can still go for Bazaar, so top lane is not completely nonexistent.

In short, if pulling is allowed, the first 5 minutes of the game will revolve around pulling in mid to secure food more efficiently. You can spend your gold in top and simply deact to re-invest in mid while pulling in mid to delay enemy units (unless they have archers in mid).

Yeah, but if pulling were unbanned, both teams would be able to pull mid, making it hard for both teams to secure food. Like you said, the meta would change. The question is who would enjoy the more micro-intensive gameplay and who would not.

[supersexyy]

People don't play civ to hardcore micro... better to leave as is.
With regards to repairing your towers, it's always been the rule that you're allowed to pull units if you're genuinely defending your towers.