Dota v6.85ne

[xSAINTx1]

For the past 2-3 months, inhouse dota games have been playing on 6.85k, and I have personally played around 150 games on that patch. Slark and legion are either banned or rarely picked, so i'm happy that those heroes are no longer a massive issue (slark terrible laner, very item dependant, terrible stat growth etc.). Ursa is very strong in the early game, when cores have not had a chance to purchase items like diffusal blade to purge off his ultimate, or for supports to farm items such as ghost staff or eul scepter. Of course you can counter pick ursa, with many slows such as dazzle, venomancer to kite him or to cancel his dagger, or by using proper stun lock, but it can still be an issue. His impact and late game does not scale as well as other core heros, so this is a balance in and of itself.

I do agree that bristle back is incredibly strong with the addition of items such as lotus orb, solar crest, and octarine core to counter his weaknesses, as well as act as a viable position 2 or 3, sometimes even a 1, if the main carry had a difficult early game. The balance changes you provided seem justified.

I don't agree with invoker being nerfed so heavily. The hero requires the highest skill ceiling of all in dota, and limiting his early game potential by removing alacrity damage (in the laning stage, and mid-game) as well as the +1 to all orbs when aghanims is rushed, seems like a shitty balance change. Bad enough hardly any players can play him competently, knowing when to fight, or push, or farm, when to use certain spells, and when to use a total 7-10 spell combo memorizing their respected invoke series, as well as timing of tornado as quas increases, etc, you're going to make him even weaker? Also, nerfing the mana cost on deaf blast and meteor makes these two skills almost obsolete in the early game without stun setup, when forge spirits, ice wall, and cold snap is more then enough to survive in lane, as well as provide a massive impact in early-mid game team fights. Also, what kind of a rookie invoker buys euls scepter anyways? Unless you are faced vs riki, silencer, storm, void, and many others who will disable you early, 3k gold on such an item seems like a waste, on a hero which has such limited item slots as it is (rather get octarine, dagger, refresh, bkb, aghs, hex or linkens).

Tiny will always be a cancer no matter how its balanced as he is always a reliable first pick in any draft, and can play in so many roles (offlane position 3-4, mid lane position 2, safe-lane position 1, etc.) His burst potential will always be strong, and his late game is one of the best for objective gaming. I think the changes you provided are fair, until I've personally seen it tested.

[Sylvanas]

@Sylvanas Thanks for your salty reply. Q: " How is your version any more legitimate than the "imba crits leoric" one? " - A: I got the legitimation by the Ghostplay community and I didn't modify the map to my advantage. Every change that was made had been discussed thoroughly by a number of experienced users. Maybe not every change was optimal but at least for our community it worked quite well and as I said above we hosted hundreds of games with this map. Maybe you still won't like it which is fine.

Overly nerfing tiny in response to him gaining 2 base str and int (loses both of them by level 4 due to abysmal growths, eats shit for the rest of the game) doesn't make the game unplayable, but that shouldn't be used as justification that the change was right. I just don't think one person or group has the validation to just make the changes they feel to some dota version and go from there. Dracolich was merely keeping dota up to date, not taking it over.

[Peachtree]

I will tell you once again. If you have not played 6.85 map before, your arguments about balacing are pretty much worthless.

I have played the old 6.85k map 2k+ games, and i have a great understanding of what were the op heroes in the old 6.85 version.
http://www.mymgn.com/stats/player/PeachTree (1414 games on one bot, that was non-em mode, that had in avarage better players than on ent, bk or ohs.)

Most of these balance fixes were made because this map is tailored to EM-mode, and for em players (so not that good)

Most of those nerfs that have been added to NE mode, do not make any of the heroes bad or unplayable. And most of them are the ones they have alrdy had on dota 2, like omni nerf and most voker nerfs.

Tiny is still really strong hero especially in public, since he is able to toss RIGHT TARGET everytime he wants to, which makes him so much better as a hard carry. This nerf is really minor actually. It only made him have 160 less mana at level 25, he can still use two spells on level 3 wihtout any item help. Tiny in 6.85 works SO MUCH DIFFERENT compared to 6.83, so if you think it that way i can see why would you lose your shit over this @sylvanas but trust me tiny in this version is twice as good as it is in 83.


Bara has not been nerfed since people had issue with it. Nerfs dont happen out of personal smite. @edgeofchaos

''> Yes it sure does. And why was this necessary? When you play vs. my slark, you're the one who needs to try to escape, not the other way around.''

Actually made me cringe so hard that i had a stroke. pls call me an ambulance.


Omni nerf is one those things that if you have no clue what you are talking about it might seem stupid. But if you have never played vs omni with
octarine core i can understtand why would you think that.

Invoker nerfs are not that harsh tbh. But before absolutely trash tier vokers would just max exort- press alcarite and win games with autoattack. Blast has been nerfed because when you are level 25 now your blast changes that it shoots in every direction. You can still use euls combo and still have some mana. And yes euls still does fit for a valid build for voker, because it provides escape, the euls combo and it takes dust off. (trust me on this :* )

Most of these comments actually can be answered by : oh you have clearly never played 6.85 before, so you have no grasp of how things actully are in the new patch

Who could've guessed that the only player who has even some REAL critisism is a player who has actually played 6.85K before @xsaintx1. maybe you two should listen the rank 1 of your bot. He seems to have the right idea.

Again i would highly recommend for you to dl the map, test it few games and then decide if you think if it sucks balls or not. Seems pretty idiotic to labble it before you have even played it once lmao, and especially if you have no clue what heroes are strong in the old 6.85k map.

[EdgeOfChaos]

No one has addressed what I said. Specifically:
1: Why is this map any more legitimate than some random person doing whatever they want with it and trying to get it autohosted?
2: The changelog is written terribly and the justifications suck. And yes, heroes ARE nerfed based on personal spite, as shown by the changelog. If someone is that bad at coming up with reasons to nerf (one of the reason was "people are too low-skill to counter it". If you don't see how this is a problem, then there is nothing for me to say to you anymore), we should not play his map.
And then to add:
3: Why should anyone care about what you have to say, then? Who even are you?

[IWinIfyoulose]

!Support

[Zeratul]

Dracolich all over again - 1st interaction and insta QQ and constant shit behaviour towards new people

Anyways, for all that matters, thanks for your information, and good job on your work @Tufuuu (Most people still host your version on Bnet, so the ones that appreciate your map, will be able to continue)

Obviously !support the map, and appreciate your time/commitment in developing

[kunkka]

No one has addressed what I said. Specifically:
1: Why is this map any more legitimate than some random person doing whatever they want with it and trying to get it autohosted?
2: The changelog is written terribly and the justifications suck. And yes, heroes ARE nerfed based on personal spite, as shown by the changelog. If someone is that bad at coming up with reasons to nerf (one of the reason was "people are too low-skill to counter it". If you don't see how this is a problem, then there is nothing for me to say to you anymore), we should not play his map.

Well some of the changes do sound over-nerf. But bottom line is there are more active communities playing this map, I believe it might be worthwhile to give it a try (we can always revert if no one likes it).

6.83d has been around forever. It might be my personal preference as I used to play lod which was based on 6.85 so I feel this is a good opportunity to make a change. The bright side is there are new items, new meta and new experience. Again, we can always revert if we don't like it.

[monka5]

!support for at least a trial run

[pinheadlarry]

Like I've said during the 2 times they tried to steamroll through the new map before, if it happens, I'll be retiring from dota.

If I wanted to play a developing version, I would have made the switch to Dota2 or LOL a long time ago.

There is a reason starcraft 1 is still quite popular over a decade later, and that is because it has good stable gameplay.

I have no problem if ENT wants to give a 6.85 option while continuing to host 6.83. The more popular option should exist.

But lets not kid ourselves. The last time ENT dual-hosted 6.85 with 6.83, the Pudgewars bot was getting more games played than 6.85. After 2 attempts to push through 6.85, you think Einstein's theory of insanity would start to kick in...

[Sylvanas]

Omni nerf is one those things that if you have no clue what you are talking about it might seem stupid. But if you have never played vs omni with
octarine core i can understtand why would you think that.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure it's an octarine problem, not an omni problem. I used to play lod, which was based on dracolich's 6.85 map, and both octarine and shadow edge feel like broken items to me, and people's item choices reflected that. Effectively, many of the changes seem to be "this hero is overpowered with octarine" nerfs, which I think is a wrong approach, even if I agreed with changing the map.

[EdgeOfChaos]

To be fair, Pudge Wars is a good game.
IMO we should have ELO for it.

[Sylvanas]

To be fair, Pudge Wars is a good game.
IMO we should have ELO for it.

You only think about elo, why don't you think about REFORGED instead for a second? Blizzard might add pudge wars rankings to REFORGED if they deem it necessary, but what if they don't add it to REFORGED instead? Would you create your own third party rankings against the terms of services of REFORGED, in an attempt to steal away users from REFORGED? Do you think you know better than Blizzard what to do with REFORGED?

REFORGED information (wc3 cheats still work!)

[EdgeOfChaos]

Yarragon?! Is that you?

[nitromon]

doesn't matter which version you play, games going to be filled with LC, slarks, and SBs.

[Yamina1]

The version they have now is the best by far