Observing

[epicdeath]

Hi everyone, I've been aware for a little while that there are some concerns with regards to current vouched players being vetoed observer spots without good reason. I contacted iightfire, one of the initial progenitors of the rule and he confirmed that it was initially designed solely to prevent ghosting through ingame whispers.

Since we currently use wc3 connect- a LAN platform- whispers are now visible in replay chat so we're no longer concerned about ghosting from observers as it can be tracked.

Consequently, I see very little reason not to change the current rule:

One veto is enough to reject a player from observing a game, however, the observer spot may not be denied to moderators or LIHL Candidates

To this:

One veto is enough to reject a player from observing a game, however, the observer spot may not be denied to any LIHL player or LIHL candidate.

Please note that this rule:

If a player wishes, he may pause the game without hindering gameplay and request the game owner to !mute the observer(s) at any time.

Remains in place to address any potential problematic behaviour.

Let us know your thoughts, Happy Gaming.

[FadingSuns]

I never cared about this, 100% trust our observers. But ur argument here seems very weak. If someone wanner trully ghost, be sure he wont do it with "trackable" wispers from wc3 but with discord/skype/etc.

Anyway this rule change seems ok to me.

[Meshtar]

Ace is right. You don't need whispers to ghost without being detected, there are plenty of other ways. But if we are pretending to be inhouse league, we should atleast act like it and trust the players. Right now, veto is only used as a spiteful way to deny players you don't like

[dweiler]

By principle I am against this change, since I believe the players are most important in LIHL, so if they feel like their game can be negatively affected by others being there who don't play, they should be able to deny their observers. Especially because it is totally untraceable if people Ghost. I know that some people are on voice chat together while being in different teams and/or obs. I don't feel like anyone should be forced to 'trust' people to not ghost, just because they want to watch a game that they can also watch in a replay, if they are so adament about it. So, by principle, a big fat NO from me.

However, more pragmatically, in this league, people mostly just observe because they wait for the next game, and the only time the Veto is used, is mainly because you can bully someone you don't like. So in the end, pragmatically, I don't have a problem with it

[sude]

krocis is definitely jerking off to this post rn

[FadingSuns]

In any case, if 5 of 8 players wanna kick an obs, it should be possible. This way we can still kick Krocis when we are 15 mins waiting +1 and he is first person joining lobby as obs.

[iamyoursenpai]

Its not hard to tab out and read ghosts in discord or somewhere else. Especially knowing several players who are activly ghosting for each other. Imo a very Bad Change outta nowhere.

[Krocis]

My frequent observing is not funny anymore, since I can play now and I actualy play a lot.

Accordding to the topic I like the idea and also agree with Spanish guy we can change veto rule to democracy and if majority of lobby want to kick someone we can do it.

[Meshtar]

Its not hard to tab out and read ghosts in discord or somewhere else. Especially knowing several players who are activly ghosting for each other. Imo a very Bad Change outta nowhere.

Please name them if you know, because that is against the most basic principle this league exists for. Honestly, if this turns into a personal trust issue, I can already say I will veto everyone except a handful of people.


I agree with that, name it, this shouldnt be happening at all. - Anda

[FadingSuns]

Its not hard to tab out and read ghosts in discord or somewhere else. Especially knowing several players who are activly ghosting for each other. Imo a very Bad Change outta nowhere.

Its a joke? And if its not... why u keep it in secret? WTF??

[TeachRolls]

Its not hard to tab out and read ghosts in discord or somewhere else. Especially knowing several players who are activly ghosting for each other. Imo a very Bad Change outta nowhere.

Knowing is one thing and then there's suspecting something of happening.

I would say, to senpai and everyone else, that it's dangerous to dwell on the possibility of someone ghosting as it might "justify" one to do the same because of (weak) human nature "if X is doing it then surely I can..."

And as per Mick's comment that ghosting is totally untraceable - I wouldn't say that. Ghosting and using the ghosted information will always leave breadcrumbs of clues behind. The more coincidental instances piled up by the same individual(s) the less of a coincidence each instance becomes.

[dweiler]

Knowing is one thing and then there's suspecting something of happening.

I would say, to senpai and everyone else, that it's dangerous to dwell on the possibility of someone ghosting as it might "justify" one to do the same because of (weak) human nature "if X is doing it then surely I can..."

And as per Mick's comment that ghosting is totally untraceable - I wouldn't say that. Ghosting and using the ghosted information will always leave breadcrumbs of clues behind. The more coincidental instances piled up by the same individual(s) the less of a coincidence each instance becomes.

Well, I don't completely agree with that. I do KNOW people ghost or at least have ghosted in the past when I was active, and I think anyone who has a reasonable mind understands this too. I suspect there were some cases of intentional ghosting, but I know for sure there has been unintentional ghosting. Like I said in my previous post, people staying on voice chat with each other and giving some info. In the past we had stuff like this many times: "I heard him typing just one button/clicking his mouse right at the start of the wave, they must be sending now", "Guy I'm on voicechat with said: wtf is yellow doing. Looking at his units he is overbuilding with TK units". I never participated in such chats, and if I was on voicechat I always left the chat if we were seperated, but I know many other did not (and maybe do not).

Even observers leaving when people sending is ghosting (we made a rule about it, but it's no longer in the rule book). And honestly, I don't fancy the odds when there are 4 people who are daily on chat with each other, and 1 of them is obs/on other team. Even if he does not have bad intentions chances are that he will screw up.

In those cases I would like to be able to say I don't want that person as obs. Not just because I don't trust him (as some suggested here that it is about trust and honesty, which is not necessarily the case), but because the odds are too big that they will have a slip of the tongue, that the will say something which he does not consider ghosting (damn that purple opponent is playing so bad), but is actually telling something.

But like I said, I can understand the pragmatical reasons, which are that 99% of the obs nowadays are to kill time, and kicks are being used as personal revenge things, which I think outweigh the negatives which come with a veto. A majority vote to kick someone sounds reasonable though.

[MudMan]

i think i mentioned before that germans are on skype 24 7 even when against each other so that could probably be what senpai means fukin nazis

[GonnaGetRekt]

A majority vote to kick someone sounds reasonable though.

I like this.

[Vendeta]

Moderator was allowing ghosting on some players. Thats only weird to me i guess...