DotA Map Change - v6.85ne Series

[Merex]

Hi,

I'm bringing back a former topic from February of this year to hopefully reach a more leaning conclusion on the DotA community in regards to changing the map from v6.83d to the latest v6.85ne10. I'll be copy/pasting the pros/cons from my previous topic as-well as adding somethings to it.

The pros/cons (from my personal observation/experience) will be listed below.
Pros
-New items.
-Cam option.
-Overall hero balances.
-Aghanims Sceptre Upgrade is expanded to more heroes. (Legion Commander/Skeleton King for example)
-Hero Model updates. (Sniper, doom, veno, axe etc. <= This can also be seen as a downside, however I don't really mind it.)
-Apem accessible. (For those who know of the original 6.85 - they know it did not have -em but this version/series does.
-Overall balance changes, no specifications from what I can find but I know they exist.
And more.

Cons
-Community loss. This is rather the most obvious and pressing concern given previous experiences of the move to v6.85 in the past left our main DotA bot from thousands of games down to mere hundreds, if even that.
It'd be important to note now that this version specifically still has -apem in-tact. Meaning, gold gain is still remained at +2/s with the activation of the mode.
-Potential unfavorable nerfs.
-Change. This doesn't really seem like a "con" but there's some whom may play 6.83d solely for it's age/current state.
And more.

In my opinion, I feel the pros outweigh the cons. But that is just me, and a shift of map is something that the community and the community alone will need to decide as it's your games that will be affected. Please do your best to stay on topic and provide legitimate reasoning as to why you may/may not like this map change.

A poll will be added, as it will speak more clearly and potentially an in-game announcement so all of our DotA players have the opportunity to comment & vote.

[pinheadlarry]

I'd say the switch to 6.85 is less viable than ever.

1. As Merex pointed out, back in the day, ENT steamrolled out a 6.85 change and the game fills were abysmally low. It was tried a 2nd time where both 83 and 85 were hosted and 85 never filled. This is back in the day where there was a bigger base, ENT was on BNET and you would have expected that a larger population base would have made a 6.85 fills more likely, but that wasn't the case.

2. WC3 has certainly hit its stagnation/decline years where the players that remain are the ones that are here because they did not want to move to LOL or Dota2.We clearly value 6.83 since we are still here or we would have disbanded to BNET, RGC, or Banter Boi's cuck-clan.

3. Although ENTs games are filling more slowly these days, they still fill eons faster than BNET. I am lucky if I can get into 3 BNET games in 2 hours to "teach them" the value of ENTs private moderation services. So by switching to 6.85 you may win back the trash that threw themselves out (i.e. Banter Boi's cuck-clan) but you will lose many more 6.83 devotes for a net loss.

4. 6.83 is ENT's niche.


As I have always said, if I wanted to move on from 6.83, I would have a long time ago. Sometimes I go several weeks without dota due to my sporadically busy schedule or inevitable vindictive bans. It is nice to be able to come back after a long break and pick up the same game you left off with and not have to read pages of changelogs.

If the change goes through, I'll retire from dota, just like meow_mix will. And while our absence would probably be seen as a blessing by people like Merex and a major "Pro", I guarantee you we aren't the only ones who will step away from dota/ENT.

[Merex]

I'd say the switch to 6.85 is less viable than ever.

1. As Merex pointed out, back in the day, ENT steamrolled out a 6.85 change and the game fills were abysmally low. It was tried a 2nd time where both 83 and 85 were hosted and 85 never filled. This is back in the day where there was a bigger base, ENT was on BNET and you would have expected that a larger population base would have made a 6.85 fills more likely, but that wasn't the case.

2. WC3 has certainly hit its stagnation/decline years where the players that remain are the ones that are here because they did not want to move to LOL or Dota2.We clearly value 6.83 since we are still here or we would have disbanded to BNET, RGC, or Banter Boi's cuck-clan.

3. Although ENTs games are filling more slowly these days, they still fill eons faster than BNET. I am lucky if I can get into 3 BNET games in 2 hours to "teach them" the value of ENTs private moderation services. So by switching to 6.85 you may win back the trash that threw themselves out (i.e. Banter Boi's cuck-clan) but you will lose many more 6.83 devotes for a net loss.

4. 6.83 is ENT's niche.


As I have always said, if I wanted to move on from 6.83, I would have a long time ago. Sometimes I go several weeks without dota due to my sporadically busy schedule or inevitable vindictive bans. It is nice to be able to come back after a long break and pick up the same game you left off with and not have to read pages of changelogs.

If the change goes through, I'll retire from dota, just like meow_mix will. And while our absence would probably be seen as a blessing by people like Merex and a major "Pro", I guarantee you we aren't the only ones who will step away from dota/ENT.

1. ENT steamrolled out the change without grasping a full community input, and that was for the original v6.85 by DracoL1ch that did not contain -EM which is what I'd say attracts people more than the map itself.

2. That's quite a steep difference comparing simple map updates to the likes of DotA2/LoL. For one, both of those games are within it's own entity and do not branch off the original warcraft III TFT. For two, it should be quite clear they're both entirely different games only sharing the basic concept of team vs team, throne vs throne. And lastly, I'd appreciate if you didn't speak on behalf of the entire community as you're only one person. If you believe the community has a majority backing to your words, I'd like to hear it from them.

3. I have to disagree there. I do, on occasion, play battle.net's DotA and I'd say lobbies fill within 5 minutes, easily. The issue is that people don't actively host games when they can't find any, hence the wait really becomes who will be the one to actually initiate the lobby. As far as ENT, we still manage 700 games a week. Not as much as we use to of course, but under the circumstance I'd say that's fine. (And yes, that number is taken directly from the bot 11 stats)

4. Disagree. Like I said, I think it's -EM that attracts people. Once introduced to v6.85ne10, I'm sure the feedback will be more positive than not. Could be wrong, but there's only one way to really find out.

I'm sorry you feel this way about the potential loss of v6.83d but you must understand, as I'm sure every adult does, change happens. 6.83 is an outdated version of DotA and the majority of the battle.net community has already made the move to 6.85ne. I understand you enjoy coming back to ENT for it's 6.83d hosted map but you are not everybody.

[KingKar]

imo the reason players dont want to switch to 6.85 is because it doesn't feel like original Dota anymore.
If u wanted to support change, ask yourself why is ENT not hosting the same map as dota 2?

Theres a big difference from dota 1 and dota 2. And theres a reason why ENT players prefer this map instead of RGC(aka dota 1.5)
6.83d v2 fixed by hermit is the closest version we have for original dota 1. A lot of ENT pubs dont post on the forums, but they understand it.


But now you want to have 8 new items, change the prices, add hero skins? Why do u need to change the hero skins? ?
there's no reason to on a 15 year old game. The only pros I saw were just a few hero balancing, and nerfs. Really, nothing else needed to change!

So why not just fix that? Why did none of the map developers tried this? It probably would've Worked! instead of forcing these big changes,
new Items, it just scares off pubs! It just feels too much risk if u stopped hosting 6.83d. I dont want ENT to decrease stability and lose players.
If what merex said is true, lets enjoy having 100 games /day hosted , and not risk throwing it away! And for this, I voted to keep hosting 6.83d.

[xSAINTx1]

Would be nice to remove the arem bot temporarily to test out the 6.85ne10 apem one. I absolutely hate the hero remodels, and dont understand why putting that sort of cosmetic on heroes we have grown to love, would be a positive change for anyone. If you dont like the aesthetic of dota 1, go to dota 2, dont tamper with new skins that 100% affect frame rate/ping/attack animations. I do agree the balance of heroes is quite better, as I have played at least 100 games on said map last year and a few months ago with FBG's inhouse league. I do recommend players to trial the inhouse at bnet if ENTs casual game atmosphere is not competitive enough.

One con of the 6.85 map is the creep routes/tree pathing. I have spent a while becoming comfortable moving around the map and finding new juke routes and techies mine/fog spots, and have not been able to adapt as quickly with the other map. I do enjoy playing on 6.83d; just wish there were less trolls and ruiners who have something against the few players who like to play on a nostalgic game.

[Sylvanas]

voted yes to cancel out larry's vote

[pinheadlarry]

voted yes to cancel out larry's vote

Glad to see I invoke more of a response to a map change then the actual changes being proposed.

Would be nice to remove the arem bot temporarily to test out the 6.85ne10 apem one.

This is a reasonable solution despite being tried once and not filling and I would support this. In the past I know mods did not go for this since they did not want to split the community, but at this point, the community will be fractured if the change goes through so it really wouldn't be much different. Honestly, dota-natural selection would be the best poll you can run. A vast majority of the playerbase would not vote on the forum. I think that 11 votes in 2 days is a pretty good sign that vote turnout is going to be abysmally low. However, if you host 2 versions, everyone who plays a game of dota subliminally casts their vote each time they join a lobby.

[Tufuuu]

100% affect frame rate/ping/attack animations.

Do you have reliable data about this? These models are used in other patches aswell without any problems. Especially that they affect the ping (ping is an utility used to determine the connectivy/reachability of a network) is in my point of view nonsense.

Moreover in recent Blizzard patches framerate droppings are nothing unusual anymore, I experienced them myself while playing on Purger's 6.83d hosted game.

[xSAINTx1]

Why can't you remove it then? I'm willing to bet, not a single player likes any of the reskins. Do you have data to counter my claim that it does affect latency? Didn't Fantom pay you real life money to fix the map so they can use it for inhouse? It would take minutes to make the heroes cosmetically the same as before. Just another reason people don't want to try your map, is change after change. @Tufuuu

[Merex]

Why can't you remove it then? I'm willing to bet, not a single player likes any of the reskins. Do you have data to counter my claim that it does affect latency? Didn't Fantom pay you real life money to fix the map so they can use it for inhouse? It would take minutes to make the heroes cosmetically the same as before. Just another reason people don't want to try your map, is change after change. @Tufuuu

Personally, I feel like Axe's QoL has gone up with his changes. When I play him on 6.85ne, it feels much smoother. (Not just his model, but his passive)

[Tufuuu]

Do you have data to counter my claim that it does affect latency?

No, this is not how it works. You claimed something and you need to provide evidence otherwise you are just spreading false truths.
Btw I also told you already that the models are used on other patches without problems and that the ping has nothing to do with models. So please go ahead and provide evidence (or give a reason why you think that) .With evidence I mean for example you could play some games on the original 6.85n map on the current patch and look if the game appears smoother (though this is not a 100% proof but at least you would try to back up your claims )

Nope, I never received money from anyone.

[1B_Fantom]

Why can't you remove it then? I'm willing to bet, not a single player likes any of the reskins. Do you have data to counter my claim that it does affect latency? Didn't Fantom pay you real life money to fix the map so they can use it for inhouse? It would take minutes to make the heroes cosmetically the same as before. Just another reason people don't want to try your map, is change after change. @Tufuuu

I do agree with saint. Literally the only thing I don't like about the new map is the cosmetic changes. They seemed very unnecessary, and if we are going to do that it should either be optional, or given to every hero (which I don't want). Having said that, the flow of games is smoother, the balance changes feel great and don't leave the OP meta of .83(slark, lc, etc.), and the added items add a lot of versatility to gameplay.

I haven never paid Tufuuu despite me offering to, he is quite against it. Draco is the one I communicate with. But the map works functionally fine now, I am waiting until Reforged comes out to pay/make the exclusive "official" in-house map since I know there will be tons of changes and updates when Reforged rolls out. No sense paying money and having effort put towards that until that time imo.

Overall, its a good map and like Saint said. If anyone who considers themselves at least an above average player wants to try their hand at better games they are welcome to try out the league games.

[Astros]

The quality of life updates is what truly makes the map better. Being able to zoom out of the map would definitely help lesser tier players and theoretically play better. The courier mechanics in 6.83d is absolutely terrible but is updated in the newer maps. I haven't tried the BNET map but I'd assume it isn't that much of a difference from the RGC map.
-Balanced heroes. Skills are updated as well.
-New items that are designed for more competitive team play (that doesn't exist on ENT currently).
-Teleport countdown. In RGC, it tells you how long it would take for your TP to actually teleport you there and there is a countdown timer for spells/items.
-Bottling a rune or bounty can be done without having to click on your bottle to refill it. You can also use the bottle on your teammates by clicking on the bottle and holding control + left click on them.
-Sentry and obs can be combined into one slot and can be purchased in singles rather than pairs. Helps not having to spend early gold on a pair that you won't need to use urgently. Also, killing obs gives supports a nice chunk of gold.

Years ago, the map changes in terms of QoL were minimal and thus, I didn't see a reason to ultimately change it. With a completely revamped and modern system that doesn't change the integrity of the game but improves the experience, the only reason people refuse to have these changes seems to be out of nostalgia rather than anything else. It's like not wanting LED lights because you like lighting up candles. 6.83d was great for its time but it's severely lacking right now. Some say ENT will be destroyed due to 6.83d not being hosted but I think you can also make a legitimate argument that people have moved on from ENT because of 6.83d being hosted. Why not just remove the AREM being hosted currently and put out the new map? After a few games, it's tough to go back to 6.83d and claim it's a better version. I have no idea what cosmetic changes are. It's entirely optional in RGC.

[Astros]

imo the reason players dont want to switch to 6.85 is because it doesn't feel like original Dota anymore.
If u wanted to support change, ask yourself why is ENT not hosting the same map as dota 2?

Theres a big difference in terms of it from dota 1 and dota 2. And theres a reason why ENT players prefer this map instead of RGC(aka dota 1.5)
6.83d v2 fixed by hermit is the closest version we have for original dota 1. A lot of ENT pubs dont post on the forums, but they understand it.


But now you want to have 8 new items, change the prices, add hero skins? Why do u need to change the hero skins? ?
there's no reason to on a 15 year old game. The only pros I saw were just a few hero balancing, and nerfs. Really, nothing else needed to change!

So why not just fix that? Why did none of the map developers tried this? It probably would've Worked! instead of forcing these big changes,
new Items, it just scares off pubs! It just feels too much risk if u stopped hosting 6.83d. I dont want ENT to decrease stability and lose players.
If what merex said is true, lets enjoy having 100 games /day hosted , and not risk throwing it away! And for this, I voted to keep hosting 6.83d.

This isn't based off any truth. The majority of DotA players have moved on to play DotA 2 so clearly, they have a different opinion than yours. The game is still DotA 1 but just modernized so the game mechanics don't end up lacking.
ENT isn't hosting the newer map because it requires approval - that of which Merex is trying to gain support for.

There isn't a big difference in terms of the objective in DotA from 6.83d from RGC DotA and nevermind the fact that they are BOTH DotA 1. Why do you continuously refer to 6.83d as DotA 1? Before 6.83d it was DotA 1. After 6.83d, it will still be and is DotA 1.

8 new items that correspond with more team play. I don't know how that annoys you but if the items are designed to improve the game, there is nothing wrong with it.
Right now, what's lacking in ENT 6.83d DotA games is no one cares to try the other items. It's literally the same 10-15 items you see every game whereas the newer map has improved item functionality and changes that encourage purchasing them.

Hero skins are map specific. This isn't the case for the RGC map as it is optional and I'm sure there is a version out there on BNET that doesn't have these skin changes.

"It just scares off pubs." Nope. You scared them off and made a few of them quit ENT when you decided to get on Rizzrak and leave 10-15 games within two days. Players like you have largely contributed to a declining player-base on ENT so I don't think you're in any position to start acting noble when you've damaged the community already.

The point is, your post is almost entirely based on fiction. The cosmetic changes I will assume is correct but the other narratives you are trying to push seems to be fear-mongering and ignorance at display rather than truth. Players who have tried the new map have ditched 6.83d. The best players in ENT's history have moved on from 6.83d and adapted to the new version simply because it's better. You're in the minority here. DotA 1 isn't 6.83d and quite frankly, 6.83d is probably one of the worst maps out there for DotA players right now.

[Astros]

Out of curiosity, what would it take to get it passed? It seems like it being this close would only mean no but surely ENT realizes that there is a declining player base in all platforms and that hosting the newer map on the AREM slot wouldn't hurt, yeah? Unless the argument against that is due to lobbies not starting because players are split on the version they want to play... I can attest to the fact that the newer map will have a high conversion rate. 6.83d players will play 5-10 games of the newer map and then realize how much better it is. Right now, the people against it two biggest concerns are:

-Cosmetic changes
-Nostalgia

These aren't some good arguments.