Vote according to this Ban Request - viewtopic.php?f=55&t=14809
While the admins are reviewing and confirming his Ban, let's hear from the Gamers.
Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
Sure, why not. Use this popularity poll as evidence when you fail to get suspicious game play from the ban request stated above.
LOL at Yondaime.
LOL at Yondaime.
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Medicca
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Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
No @IAmLegion, but not every staff is on at the same time. We come from different timezones.
I also reviewed the replay twice and find it unlikely that Fangorn is maphacking:
Some points qtrinity made are worth noticing. Storm first checks top rune at 6:00, finds nothing, then goes bot. However, the rune has already been taken. He runs into two heroes.
Moreover:
At 14:00, Storm scouts the rune using his courier.
At ~19:10, although Doom accuses Storm of having too fast of a reaction time, remember that the ward on top river saw enemies incoming. Storm knew they were coming.
He plays well all game, having good reflexes when having vision. He bought observer wards and sentries throughout the game. He also runs into invis heroes and gets ganked. It's unlikely that someone with maphack would do this.
At 43:40, he has already finished the jungle. There's no point in staying there. He was nearly full on mana, I would've done the same. A maphacker with more awareness would not have stopped midway with ult.
Considering these points, I'd say he did not maphack this game.
I also reviewed the replay twice and find it unlikely that Fangorn is maphacking:
Some points qtrinity made are worth noticing. Storm first checks top rune at 6:00, finds nothing, then goes bot. However, the rune has already been taken. He runs into two heroes.
Moreover:
At 14:00, Storm scouts the rune using his courier.
At ~19:10, although Doom accuses Storm of having too fast of a reaction time, remember that the ward on top river saw enemies incoming. Storm knew they were coming.
He plays well all game, having good reflexes when having vision. He bought observer wards and sentries throughout the game. He also runs into invis heroes and gets ganked. It's unlikely that someone with maphack would do this.
At 43:40, he has already finished the jungle. There's no point in staying there. He was nearly full on mana, I would've done the same. A maphacker with more awareness would not have stopped midway with ult.
Considering these points, I'd say he did not maphack this game.
Yes... Swooping is bad.-
Medicca
- Treant Protector
- Posts: 649
- Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 4:51 am
- Location: Vancouver, Canada
- Has thanked: 1 time
Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
Sorry, I've pasted it in the actual discussion. It was locked, thought I couldn't post, but I actually can >=D
Yes... Swooping is bad.Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
Agreements wrote:Why are you posting in this "spam" thread lol
Why aren't you taking into consideration what multiple players and admins are telling you and just remove the ban?
Biased admins reports and executes a ban on a player everyone knows he hates, then refuses to remove it untill it has been "reviewed". Please, it has been reviewed, and anyone with half a brain and a little bit of knowledge in regards to dota knows he didn't maphack. Moreover, if he did, he would be the worst player on earth with that map movement.
Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
Relax.. This poll is for all the fun in democracy.
At the end of the day, we can look at how everyone who voted feels about Fangorn.
[spoiler=]Some of us vote for friendship
Some vote for hatred
Some vote after watching replays
Some vote regardless
This is just a Popularity Poll; seen American Idol? You get to vote for free here, without spending a dime. Nothing in this world is free other than this Poll.
So let's all vote![/spoiler]
At the end of the day, we can look at how everyone who voted feels about Fangorn.
[spoiler=]Some of us vote for friendship
Some vote for hatred
Some vote after watching replays
Some vote regardless
This is just a Popularity Poll; seen American Idol? You get to vote for free here, without spending a dime. Nothing in this world is free other than this Poll.
So let's all vote![/spoiler]
Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
To preface what I'm saying: This is a longer post, and it doesn't really discuss the merits behind the ban; rather, it looks at the stark violation of ENT protocol when dealing with an accused maphacker.
I'm just voting on the principle of "innocent until proven guilty". I'm rather concerned that Agreements decided to take the liberty of banning Fangorn for the very serious offense of maphacking, which carries an extremely heavy sentence, without consulting other moderators. I've spent quite some time in the Ban Requests and Ban Appeals sections, rarely commenting, but instead reviewing the cases that show up so to learn about your protocol for handling these bans. What I've seen so far amounts to this:
1) Somebody files a ban request for MH
2) Moderators run it through for fogclicks, check for suspicious movements
3) If fogclicks are found or there are many suspicious movements, the moderator moves the topic to Admin Confirmation
4) Multiple other moderators concur or disagree. Eventually a consensus is reached.
5) The violator is banned if found guilty.
What worries me so much about this case is that Agreements decided to take a "guilty until proven innocent" approach. Furthermore, as an admin who clearly has past grievances with Fangorn, he decided it would be okay for him to deal with the ban. In most of the world, this would be an incident of a biased judge. While I realize that being an administrator and having to deal with the grief he gives you is undoubtedly stressful, protocol is there for a reason. The decision you made to bypass it is at the heart of my complaint here.
A well known lawyer in Rhode Island once said the following about its judicial system: "I can state with certainty that if you go against the status quo in Rhode Island and point out wrongdoing of the judiciary they will ruin your legal practice and make it impossible for you to win a case." I do not want ENT to go this route. So far, ENT has had mostly good moderators, ones that follow protocol, stay impartial regardless of the identity of the accused, and allow others to review and judge without interference if they are biased.
Ultimately, the conduct I witnessed from Agreements in the Ban Request was certainly biased, as if he had already made his mind up about the case and would ignore whatever QTrinity had to say. And while my opinion may not mean much, I say that I certainly don't want people that consistently act like this to be moderators, let alone an administrator. Regardless of the verdict, I sincerely hope that the standards of behavior that admins are held up to are reviewed. I know nobody's perfect, but that doesn't mean that you can't strive to be better.
If this doesn't belong here, I will gladly repost in a more appropriate area.
I'm just voting on the principle of "innocent until proven guilty". I'm rather concerned that Agreements decided to take the liberty of banning Fangorn for the very serious offense of maphacking, which carries an extremely heavy sentence, without consulting other moderators. I've spent quite some time in the Ban Requests and Ban Appeals sections, rarely commenting, but instead reviewing the cases that show up so to learn about your protocol for handling these bans. What I've seen so far amounts to this:
1) Somebody files a ban request for MH
2) Moderators run it through for fogclicks, check for suspicious movements
3) If fogclicks are found or there are many suspicious movements, the moderator moves the topic to Admin Confirmation
4) Multiple other moderators concur or disagree. Eventually a consensus is reached.
5) The violator is banned if found guilty.
What worries me so much about this case is that Agreements decided to take a "guilty until proven innocent" approach. Furthermore, as an admin who clearly has past grievances with Fangorn, he decided it would be okay for him to deal with the ban. In most of the world, this would be an incident of a biased judge. While I realize that being an administrator and having to deal with the grief he gives you is undoubtedly stressful, protocol is there for a reason. The decision you made to bypass it is at the heart of my complaint here.
A well known lawyer in Rhode Island once said the following about its judicial system: "I can state with certainty that if you go against the status quo in Rhode Island and point out wrongdoing of the judiciary they will ruin your legal practice and make it impossible for you to win a case." I do not want ENT to go this route. So far, ENT has had mostly good moderators, ones that follow protocol, stay impartial regardless of the identity of the accused, and allow others to review and judge without interference if they are biased.
Ultimately, the conduct I witnessed from Agreements in the Ban Request was certainly biased, as if he had already made his mind up about the case and would ignore whatever QTrinity had to say. And while my opinion may not mean much, I say that I certainly don't want people that consistently act like this to be moderators, let alone an administrator. Regardless of the verdict, I sincerely hope that the standards of behavior that admins are held up to are reviewed. I know nobody's perfect, but that doesn't mean that you can't strive to be better.
If this doesn't belong here, I will gladly repost in a more appropriate area.
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karasu.
- Protector of Nature
- Posts: 2356
- Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:31 pm
- Location: Olympus(Destroyed)
Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
Well also take this into account. Regardless of public opinion or people's personal feelings one of our staff brought a maphack case on a player and no amount of complaints or arguing is going to make it progress any faster. I'm not commenting on whether he's innocent or guilty because I haven't looked into the facts but I am going to ask you guys to keep it civil or I will start handing out forum warnings and more if needed. I'm not here to judge guilty or innocent, I'm posting here to keep the peace.
Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
Peace!!! I love Polls and love public opinions whenever controversy arises.
Every player, every gamer has their rights to defend themselves but this Fangorn noob doesn't know DRM, FCD and English well. He only knows about last hitting and Creep Stats.
Fangorn said, " Why don't you unban, when this case is obviously solved? I don't know what this is about, but it's getting frustrating. Just unban me so I can play "
- viewtopic.php?f=55&t=14809&start=53
Look at Fangorn's tone, he's frustrated and not considering what all the commotion is about regarding the Fog Click which got him banned. <-- Total noob towards the mechanics which gotten him banned
======================================================================================================================================================
When he noticed his ban lasted till 2014, Fangorn merely expressed to me via Face Book "They banned me". Till I told him "That's a Map Hack ban Dude!"
And he was like OMFG, they ban me cause they lost against me in this game I just had with them!
I saw myself necessitating to make a comeback from Retirement and put an eye on the Ban Evidence and hopeful make a fair Judgement again.
Game Info - https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=1929735
======================================================================================================================================================
A History about Q-TriNitY as an Admin (Game and Forum Moderator)
I was always impartial in handing out bans and listening to what the Accused has to say about my claims and findings which I deemed as Unacceptable Game Play.
Though I may not be perfect but will always entertain all victims from my MH bans issued against them. If they failed to respond to ban requests, Appeals are always there for them to speak for themselves.
In the following Case, Wanderer did not have time to respond to his ban and thus we met in Appeals.
Link to Map Hack Ban Request - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10245&p=50433&hilit=wanderer#p50433
Link to Map Hack Appeals of Wanderer - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10322&hilit=wanderer#p50816
Watch how I engaged him on a level which made him Surrender to my claims.
Listening and offering a re-enactment of post scenes; taking much time to re-live the moments that set myself to pounce with the Ban Hammer.
Letting the Accused see what was 'Weird and Unsound' in his game play behaviors.
======================================================================================================================================================
There are the Criteria of Suspicious Game play which I always hold dearly and take into account when no valid Fog Clicks are available.
1. Runes - Running and grabbing Runes that are farther away without vision or good guess.
2. K/D - Zeros wards and yet superb hunts and escapes.
3. Reaction towards Invis Threats - Departure from an Unfinished Creep wave
No matter how well a MHer conceal his Tricks, he is bound to be forced in one or more situations where his undesirable Global Vision drives him to the breaking point of forced error in taking up a Defensive Stance and Evading Deaths.
Ask ourselves, What is the use of having Map Hack when you do not Tap on the Privileged information to your Advantage?
These are the decisions of a Hacker during each of their fouled games:
1. "I have MH on, I saw the ganks coming, I'm pretty dead if I were to continue attempt to behave normally"
2. "Making a break now will be obvious, I will give away some kills to them"
3. "It is Critical moment, this Death spells Victory from Defeat, got to take the chance of hinting I'm Map Hacking"
4. "I need more kills, any lesser will be GG for my team as their Carries are getting way to Fat"
1 and 2 are what's going on in the MHer's mind, to not act obvious and concel his secrets.
3 and 4 are the moments where a 'Pro MHer" is forced to make errors.
======================================================================================================================================================
Stats page - https://entgaming.net/openstats/dota/player/fangorn/
[spoiler=]Ranked 5th from the Top in terms of ELO
But far from Top in view of what's happening [/spoiler]
======================================================================================================================================================
Every player, every gamer has their rights to defend themselves but this Fangorn noob doesn't know DRM, FCD and English well. He only knows about last hitting and Creep Stats.
Fangorn said, " Why don't you unban, when this case is obviously solved? I don't know what this is about, but it's getting frustrating. Just unban me so I can play "
- viewtopic.php?f=55&t=14809&start=53
Look at Fangorn's tone, he's frustrated and not considering what all the commotion is about regarding the Fog Click which got him banned. <-- Total noob towards the mechanics which gotten him banned
======================================================================================================================================================
When he noticed his ban lasted till 2014, Fangorn merely expressed to me via Face Book "They banned me". Till I told him "That's a Map Hack ban Dude!"
And he was like OMFG, they ban me cause they lost against me in this game I just had with them!
I saw myself necessitating to make a comeback from Retirement and put an eye on the Ban Evidence and hopeful make a fair Judgement again.
- 2.png (47.51 KiB) Viewed 1307 times
Game Info - https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=1929735
======================================================================================================================================================
A History about Q-TriNitY as an Admin (Game and Forum Moderator)
I was always impartial in handing out bans and listening to what the Accused has to say about my claims and findings which I deemed as Unacceptable Game Play.
Though I may not be perfect but will always entertain all victims from my MH bans issued against them. If they failed to respond to ban requests, Appeals are always there for them to speak for themselves.
In the following Case, Wanderer did not have time to respond to his ban and thus we met in Appeals.
Link to Map Hack Ban Request - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10245&p=50433&hilit=wanderer#p50433
Link to Map Hack Appeals of Wanderer - viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10322&hilit=wanderer#p50816
Watch how I engaged him on a level which made him Surrender to my claims.
Listening and offering a re-enactment of post scenes; taking much time to re-live the moments that set myself to pounce with the Ban Hammer.
Letting the Accused see what was 'Weird and Unsound' in his game play behaviors.
======================================================================================================================================================
There are the Criteria of Suspicious Game play which I always hold dearly and take into account when no valid Fog Clicks are available.
1. Runes - Running and grabbing Runes that are farther away without vision or good guess.
2. K/D - Zeros wards and yet superb hunts and escapes.
3. Reaction towards Invis Threats - Departure from an Unfinished Creep wave
No matter how well a MHer conceal his Tricks, he is bound to be forced in one or more situations where his undesirable Global Vision drives him to the breaking point of forced error in taking up a Defensive Stance and Evading Deaths.
Ask ourselves, What is the use of having Map Hack when you do not Tap on the Privileged information to your Advantage?
These are the decisions of a Hacker during each of their fouled games:
1. "I have MH on, I saw the ganks coming, I'm pretty dead if I were to continue attempt to behave normally"
2. "Making a break now will be obvious, I will give away some kills to them"
3. "It is Critical moment, this Death spells Victory from Defeat, got to take the chance of hinting I'm Map Hacking"
4. "I need more kills, any lesser will be GG for my team as their Carries are getting way to Fat"
1 and 2 are what's going on in the MHer's mind, to not act obvious and concel his secrets.
3 and 4 are the moments where a 'Pro MHer" is forced to make errors.
======================================================================================================================================================
Stats page - https://entgaming.net/openstats/dota/player/fangorn/
[spoiler=]Ranked 5th from the Top in terms of ELO
But far from Top in view of what's happening [/spoiler]
======================================================================================================================================================
Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
Thanks again for the support Qtrinity.
@agent Probably the most well written argument that has even been put up on this site. I am also wondering, why am I still banned? This case is more of a personal vendetta, clearly, but still. I got a pm from @agreements
Now I have been banned for a long enough time. On top of this, I regularly check the initiatal report, and @yondaime is still not viewing it as far as I can see on the bottom of the page. What is the status? Is it going to be viewed, or is it viewed at this moment?
@agent Probably the most well written argument that has even been put up on this site. I am also wondering, why am I still banned? This case is more of a personal vendetta, clearly, but still. I got a pm from @agreements
Guys, we already agreed in staff that youndaime would handle this. And it was also stated. Now please, instead of beginning to nag everyone, let yondaime do his job. And wait for him. No reason to mix uakf.b into this. (and yes he will agree - because - why should you mix him into this, when people are already assigned to it.)
- Await yondaimes response. And take it from there.
And again, arty didn't 100% disagree, and timmy doesn't know shit about dota. So instead of trying to "lie" about this, let yondaime handle it, fair enough?
Now I have been banned for a long enough time. On top of this, I regularly check the initiatal report, and @yondaime is still not viewing it as far as I can see on the bottom of the page. What is the status? Is it going to be viewed, or is it viewed at this moment?
Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
Fangorn, lets not quote from Private messages as a Respect for individual privacy. Shall you edit your post from above?
Let me make a fair statement. If I do not fancy Fangorn and somehow decided to check Replays to find a 3 sec fog click, I would too jump the gun and impose a ban request.
However if individuals could point out that the click is delayed for whatever reasons, I would get back on the replay and ascertain the click once more.
If all fails, I will look at his game play and look for loop holes in his behavior and habits.
Rune takings, Defensive stance and Reaction to Invisible Threats.
When neither of these are available in the Replay, I will let Fangorn off with an apology in this Tone.
"I'm sorry and totally mistaken"
We are just humans and we live with our mistakes.
Let me make a fair statement. If I do not fancy Fangorn and somehow decided to check Replays to find a 3 sec fog click, I would too jump the gun and impose a ban request.
However if individuals could point out that the click is delayed for whatever reasons, I would get back on the replay and ascertain the click once more.
If all fails, I will look at his game play and look for loop holes in his behavior and habits.
Rune takings, Defensive stance and Reaction to Invisible Threats.
When neither of these are available in the Replay, I will let Fangorn off with an apology in this Tone.
"I'm sorry and totally mistaken"
We are just humans and we live with our mistakes.
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aRt)Y
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Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
*yawn*
The ban stays until it's proven right or wrong. The argument of the benefit of doubt doesn't work here.
Or do we instantly unban users who appeal? No.
karasu. wrote:Regardless of public opinion or people's personal feelings one of our staff brought a maphack case on a player and no amount of complaints or arguing is going to make it progress any faster.
The ban stays until it's proven right or wrong. The argument of the benefit of doubt doesn't work here.
Or do we instantly unban users who appeal? No.
- Information, Rules, Guides and everything else you need to know about ENT is on the ENT Wiki.
- Ignorantia juris non excusat • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? • Fallacy of composition
Re: Public's View of Fangorn's Ban
Yup, no proof. The evidence was fouled. If ever an admin plans to ban, ensure they have a back up plan aka another evidence and cross their fingers its a good one.
Sitting on a ban without replies to challenges looks awfully bad for ENT.
As for arty, when ever an Appeal arrives, the Banning Admin has to have evidences at his finger tips and talk it out to the Accused or Guilty.
You can't leave a ban appeal, especially a MH case, unanswered for 2 days.
Either you say No, the ban applies because you Blah Blah fog click and severals scenes showed ample suspicions of MH or you reply Unbanned due to lack of Evidences.
Get it?
Sitting on a ban without replies to challenges looks awfully bad for ENT.
As for arty, when ever an Appeal arrives, the Banning Admin has to have evidences at his finger tips and talk it out to the Accused or Guilty.
You can't leave a ban appeal, especially a MH case, unanswered for 2 days.
Either you say No, the ban applies because you Blah Blah fog click and severals scenes showed ample suspicions of MH or you reply Unbanned due to lack of Evidences.
Get it?
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