Hi there
I just wanted to start a dialogue about the behavior of moderators, both in-game and on the forums. While I have met many moderators who have striven to be helpful and respectful while under stress, some other moderators seem to be lacking these qualities. The stress and responsibility of being a moderator is difficult, and I recognize that some people may not be as qualified to handle these responsibilities, but instead of being allowed to remain, they should be reprimanded and reminded that, as moderators or administrators, they are essentially the face of ENT and they should strive to remain respectful even when they feel that they are being belittled or perhaps outright insulted, instead of responding in kind.
Anyways, thanks for listening to this little "rant" of mine. Comments are appreciated, especially from moderators or players who feel that they have been victimized.
Moderator Etiquette
Moderator: Oversight Staff
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bit
Re: Moderator Etiquette
Hi. This sub-forum is not for "Comments are appreciated, especially from moderators or players who feel that they have been victimized." If you have something exact, then you should edit your post and add it. Otherwise, i'm moving this to off-topic section
Re: Moderator Etiquette
bit wrote:Hi. This sub-forum is not for "Comments are appreciated, especially from moderators or players who feel that they have been victimized." If you have something exact, then you should edit your post and add it. Otherwise, i'm moving this to off-topic section
Very well, feel free to move this topic to wherever you believe it will most likely create a helpful dialogue between users and moderators.
QTriNitY wrote:Maybe moving to Suggestions will sound good.
Perhaps this? Or maybe Discussion?
Re: Moderator Etiquette
I think he's pointing to the fact that you have moderators banning users with a long standing history of gameplay on ENT. Users that neither flames nor hacks or abuse. Still this moderator in particular, were given leave to ban the user in question without any hard evidence, or imo, any evidence whatsoever other than a blind hate "gut feel".
If ENT actually had a userbase worth mentioning, I think we all know this mod would have been removed a long time ago and the matter sorted out. This is beginning to feel more like a "we want to spend so much time that people forget about it, so we don't have to have a "hard talk" with a moderator that we're friends with and will have to remove".
Come on.. Put yourselves in this users shoes. He did nothing wrong, and is banned for it whilst the matter is being "subject to scrutiny". 3 days ban, the same thing a user I reported for afking, flaming and game ruining got.
You serve out harsh punishments to the innocent, and commend the guilty. All the while wondering why all the good players are leaving, and you're stuck with the trash.
Reality check please.
If ENT actually had a userbase worth mentioning, I think we all know this mod would have been removed a long time ago and the matter sorted out. This is beginning to feel more like a "we want to spend so much time that people forget about it, so we don't have to have a "hard talk" with a moderator that we're friends with and will have to remove".
Come on.. Put yourselves in this users shoes. He did nothing wrong, and is banned for it whilst the matter is being "subject to scrutiny". 3 days ban, the same thing a user I reported for afking, flaming and game ruining got.
You serve out harsh punishments to the innocent, and commend the guilty. All the while wondering why all the good players are leaving, and you're stuck with the trash.
Reality check please.
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karasu.
- Protector of Nature
- Posts: 2356
- Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:31 pm
- Location: Olympus(Destroyed)
Re: Moderator Etiquette
IAmLegion wrote:I think he's pointing to the fact that you have moderators banning users with a long standing history of gameplay on ENT. Users that neither flames nor hacks or abuse. Still this moderator in particular, were given leave to ban the user in question without any hard evidence, or imo, any evidence whatsoever other than a blind hate "gut feel".
If ENT actually had a userbase worth mentioning, I think we all know this mod would have been removed a long time ago and the matter sorted out. This is beginning to feel more like a "we want to spend so much time that people forget about it, so we don't have to have a "hard talk" with a moderator that we're friends with and will have to remove".
Come on.. Put yourselves in this users shoes. He did nothing wrong, and is banned for it whilst the matter is being "subject to scrutiny". 3 days ban, the same thing a user I reported for afking, flaming and game ruining got.
You serve out harsh punishments to the innocent, and commend the guilty. All the while wondering why all the good players are leaving, and you're stuck with the trash.
Reality check please.
So are you speaking for all staff? If so I would have to say quite the contrary. If our mods are punishing innocent people who are proven innocent then they'll either be warned, demoted, or removed. If you have proof for a legitimate abuse case then post a complaint and I or another green/red will look into the issue. You have to understand that out of respect for both the player and staff member that I need replays, links, appeals/requests to go off of or I can't go any further.
I don't side with anybody so if you want an unbiased response based on facts then I will be more than happy to review, there are other mods but I do not know if they want to be involved so I won't name them.
Re: Moderator Etiquette
@Agent - Appropriate too if moved to Discussion.
============================================================================================================================
@IAmLegion - During my era of April - May 2013, ENT Staff was an enjoyable family.
We handle lesser ban requests (5 a day) and has a family of almost 10 admins to each taking a share of the chore at hand.
Life was great and not many disputes over bans issued.
Until BGN was merged, the migration of new Staff with their differences in thinking changed ENT.
For the best or not, I do not want to comment much. But here's a feel of the Old ENT days.
We have Admins segregated into 2 main bodies. Each specialized in their own games and we hardly cross over one another's boundaries.
The common understanding we struck was that if you are unable or uncomfortable to handle other game requests, you should not touch those bans.
But if you think you can do it, carry on.
With this mentality, everyone strives to try out new things and this was a very good way to improve judgements and getting to know one another from different Specialization better.
I can only say, a smaller family is a happy family. However with BGN's arrival, many things changed. The Staff had to grow to handle the increasing volume of Ban Requests which was brought about by the influx of BGN gamers.
Structurally, Staff was morphed to what it is today. All Admins handle all kinds of Game Bans. Thus mistakes are more likely to happen at a larger amount.
But mistakes remain as mistakes. Its something we commit and learn from. Yes?
DotA Games (Just naming a few, apologies if I left you out)
Agreements
Nutzsuckshard
Palsgraf
VirusHunter
Bubblestorm
Custom Games
Karasu.
Ultimate_Amaya
Supersexyy
Admins
uakf.b
cyberpunk
Teller55
============================================================================================================================
@IAmLegion - During my era of April - May 2013, ENT Staff was an enjoyable family.
We handle lesser ban requests (5 a day) and has a family of almost 10 admins to each taking a share of the chore at hand.
Life was great and not many disputes over bans issued.
Until BGN was merged, the migration of new Staff with their differences in thinking changed ENT.
For the best or not, I do not want to comment much. But here's a feel of the Old ENT days.
We have Admins segregated into 2 main bodies. Each specialized in their own games and we hardly cross over one another's boundaries.
The common understanding we struck was that if you are unable or uncomfortable to handle other game requests, you should not touch those bans.
But if you think you can do it, carry on.
With this mentality, everyone strives to try out new things and this was a very good way to improve judgements and getting to know one another from different Specialization better.
I can only say, a smaller family is a happy family. However with BGN's arrival, many things changed. The Staff had to grow to handle the increasing volume of Ban Requests which was brought about by the influx of BGN gamers.
Structurally, Staff was morphed to what it is today. All Admins handle all kinds of Game Bans. Thus mistakes are more likely to happen at a larger amount.
But mistakes remain as mistakes. Its something we commit and learn from. Yes?
DotA Games (Just naming a few, apologies if I left you out)
Agreements
Nutzsuckshard
Palsgraf
VirusHunter
Bubblestorm
Custom Games
Karasu.
Ultimate_Amaya
Supersexyy
Admins
uakf.b
cyberpunk
Teller55
Re: Moderator Etiquette
The fact that this topic was moved to "off-topic" says alot. The ability to be open and take criticism is important.
@karasu. I already tried opening a complaint of what I think this topic was meant to be. Criticism over an admin who uses his emotion to punish a regular user (me), who openly critcize the admins (agreements) behaviour, aswell as actions.
My complaint was dismissed and it was moved to "processed" by the admin who was criticized. Need I say more?
@karasu. I already tried opening a complaint of what I think this topic was meant to be. Criticism over an admin who uses his emotion to punish a regular user (me), who openly critcize the admins (agreements) behaviour, aswell as actions.
My complaint was dismissed and it was moved to "processed" by the admin who was criticized. Need I say more?
Re: Moderator Etiquette
karasu. wrote:I didn't move to off topic
No, that's probably bit. This serious topic was disrespectfully moved to "off-topic"
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karasu.
- Protector of Nature
- Posts: 2356
- Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:31 pm
- Location: Olympus(Destroyed)
Re: Moderator Etiquette
Fangorn wrote:karasu. wrote:I didn't move to off topic
No, that's probably bit. This serious topic was disrespectfully moved to "off-topic"
Well in all due respect and fairness to bit, it would help if the OP would include specific admins. I mean we need specifics to be able to move forward with anything. If he provides links and other things as well as specific names of admins then he is more than welcome to post another complaint. You have to understand that while all complaints are serious we also expect the OP to put forth effort. I'm not siding with anyone, I'm merely speaking what I believe.
Re: Moderator Etiquette
Thank you for the respectful and kind replies, Karasu., as well as including ways for me to improve my topic. Other moderators that I've seen having good behavior are EdgeofChaos and Medicca. Now for some examples...
This was posted in the "Public's View of Fangorn's Ban" thread. It was a thread asking for opinions on Fangorn's ban, which was in fact very much necessary due to the main ban request (found here: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=14809) being locked. I'm rather confused about how this is "spam" in any way, shape, or form.
Now onto Agreement's remarks in the original ban request thread.
First off, Agreements blows off the explanation provided as an excuse. The next thing he did - which, in my opinion, was rather reasonable - was question the 5-second lag. I would have done the same. However, at the end, his "pff" shows extreme unwillingness to believe anything; at this point, I pretty much already knew that the chances of Fangorn being unbanned by Agreements were near zero.
Seem like a guy on a crusade... at the risk of being insulting, hypocritical much?
Throwing out accusations of bias against QTrinity simply because QTrinity is behaving like a staff member should (even though he isn't!) and double-checking the validity of the fog-click.
While true, I see no purpose in harping on the fact that QTrinity is no longer on the ENT staff. He has provided a plethora of useful information, which, unless I'm mistaken, the moderators looking at the case could potentially consider. While he may not have a vote, he certainly can have an influence. Maybe I'm biased, but it seems as if you're trying to intimidate QTrinity into stopping his postings simply because he's arguing against you.
Because, maybe, just maybe, delayed clicks exist throughout all of WC3, not just DotA? And they're rather consistent in terms of what can or cannot be considered a delayed click?
Right. And perhaps you, too, should start following this guideline? If you need examples, there are a bunch right above this.
Now maybe all the off-topic posts were deleted, but at the time of writing, there really isn't much off-topic stuff in the thread. Also, huzzah for thinly-veiled threats.
Now from another thread, viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14657. Disclaimer: I do not necessarily agree with the motives behind the creation of the thread, and have no comment on the merit of the accusations presented within. I could go on and on about how the users within could also be more respectful, but this is about the moderators, so, without further ado...
I'd be very disappointed to learn that this behavior is perfectly acceptable for admins.
The first part made me laugh a bit, reading that so soon after reviewing Fangorn's ban request. The second part... well, did somebody say "unnecessary, irrelevant insults"?
There was no possible way to say that in a more respectful way? No, of course not. Jumping to calling others "low" was the only way this could be remedied!
The bolded parts basically speak for themselves. And to think that the speaker is trusted with responsibilities regarding the smooth running of ENT...
Starts off by recommending that the user leaves. Then he makes the assumption that "[he] can shit on [fangorn]" in regards to DotA play. Next up, he talks about how Fangorn is way too stats-obsessed, and stats don't mean anything anyways. In the very next sentence, he completely brushes a user aside because his stats are stellar? Surely I'm not the only one confused by this... And to end things off, a message for every ENT user out there: If you think we're doing something wrong, fuck off. Sincerely, BurritoCarcass.
This is one of the most reasonable things I've seen Agreements post so far...
On the other hand, you are SO willing to see past any grudges you have with Fangorn in order to be totally fair and impartial with regards to his ban request.
Can't really argue with this at all. It's stated in a rather respectful manner. At the very least, I would recommend holding ENT staff to these standards when they are discussing matter in which their rank as a moderator/administrator holds weight.
That makes sense, insulting shouldn't be allowed, and it's not tolerated here at ENTgaming.net...
...On the other hand, thinly-veiled insults? Go ahead!
Sanity prevails! Kudos.
If you would like more examples, I'll be more than happy to provide them.
Agreements wrote:Why are you posting in this "spam" thread lol
This was posted in the "Public's View of Fangorn's Ban" thread. It was a thread asking for opinions on Fangorn's ban, which was in fact very much necessary due to the main ban request (found here: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=14809) being locked. I'm rather confused about how this is "spam" in any way, shape, or form.
Now onto Agreement's remarks in the original ban request thread.
Agreements wrote:Ofc you blame lag, and yet he doesn't. Come up with a better excuse next time.
If it was was trinity, and 5 sec, as you mentioned he would have 5k ms, in which he CLEALY didn't. Since the lagscreen would appear in that very second.
Having lags at min 30, doesn't mean you have lag at min 50... Besides from the replay being bugged in regard to starttimes, has nothing evidential in regard to the click itself.
I suggest you research a little more in regard to latency.
none of the clicks made from min 38 to end, is the same in replay as well as in drm.
Also if it was lag, then how could he use ulti-like you can when you have 0 latency .. bummer.
There are a few episodes, when we tried ganging him, where he just jumps out before. But i guess, 5 sec latency makes you do that. pff
First off, Agreements blows off the explanation provided as an excuse. The next thing he did - which, in my opinion, was rather reasonable - was question the 5-second lag. I would have done the same. However, at the end, his "pff" shows extreme unwillingness to believe anything; at this point, I pretty much already knew that the chances of Fangorn being unbanned by Agreements were near zero.
Agreements wrote:Also fangorn, stop the personal shit, unless you want to seem like a guy on a crusade. Qtrinity haven't proved anything yet.
Seem like a guy on a crusade... at the risk of being insulting, hypocritical much?
Agreements wrote:And since he's your friend, i see why you defending him.
Throwing out accusations of bias against QTrinity simply because QTrinity is behaving like a staff member should (even though he isn't!) and double-checking the validity of the fog-click.
Agreements wrote:Also trinity, is not in staff, so what he says atm, has no bearing on the verdict in the end. (but you already knew that).
While true, I see no purpose in harping on the fact that QTrinity is no longer on the ENT staff. He has provided a plethora of useful information, which, unless I'm mistaken, the moderators looking at the case could potentially consider. While he may not have a vote, he certainly can have an influence. Maybe I'm biased, but it seems as if you're trying to intimidate QTrinity into stopping his postings simply because he's arguing against you.
Agreements wrote:Dunno why mods, who says they dunno about dota, even post's but i guess that will remain a wonder though.
Because, maybe, just maybe, delayed clicks exist throughout all of WC3, not just DotA? And they're rather consistent in terms of what can or cannot be considered a delayed click?
Agreements wrote:I don't want to keep telling you to stop insulting me, or anything. You been told before, and once should have been enough, yet i'm giving you a lot of chances here, but if you are to stubborn to follow a simple guideline about respect you shouldn't be posting at all. Last warning in that regard. Tired of keep telling you.
Right. And perhaps you, too, should start following this guideline? If you need examples, there are a bunch right above this.
Agreements wrote:Can you people stop going off-topic and post relevant instead.
No nvm. that's clearly impossible. letting yondaime and others take this from now. Locking due to insults. (and I'm not forum banning anyone even though i should).
Until this case is resolved, nothing will happen.
Now maybe all the off-topic posts were deleted, but at the time of writing, there really isn't much off-topic stuff in the thread. Also, huzzah for thinly-veiled threats.
Now from another thread, viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14657. Disclaimer: I do not necessarily agree with the motives behind the creation of the thread, and have no comment on the merit of the accusations presented within. I could go on and on about how the users within could also be more respectful, but this is about the moderators, so, without further ado...
Agreements wrote:Haters gonna always gonna hate.
Don't you kids got anything else to do?
You lost a game, get over it. pff.
I'd be very disappointed to learn that this behavior is perfectly acceptable for admins.
BeerIsForBears wrote:yup , especially when this is about maphack . We need other mods opinions as well because banning for year is long time and we don't want to make mistake so go ahead and report about this player if you think he has maphack
and why are u stalking him ? Everything he does , you post it to forums... Seriously
The first part made me laugh a bit, reading that so soon after reviewing Fangorn's ban request. The second part... well, did somebody say "unnecessary, irrelevant insults"?
BurritoCarcass wrote:I agree with my fellow mods, this is low, even for you fangorn.
There was no possible way to say that in a more respectful way? No, of course not. Jumping to calling others "low" was the only way this could be remedied!
BurritoCarcass wrote:I love how half of Fangorn's argument in his last post is completely irrelevant. This isn't about smurfing/sniping, this is about you continually defacing the admin of this community because you are morally challenged. What do you expect someone to do in game when you say someone is a dodger/MHer? Kick them and ban them on the spot? If you are so sure of this accusation, take the time and prove it, stop whining about our admin. It is not our responsibility to trust baseless accusations from people like you, and if you are so disgusted by our actions, why don't you take your "talents" somewhere else. Half of your posts on the forum are not only useless, but ignorant. It's posts like this that have reduced the value of your opinion, and you wonder why no one responds to your accusations or trusts you. Get a life.
Oh, and one last thing, I'm sorry if playing with people I know is stacking, sue me. Sorry that I have people that will actually play with me, unlike you... it's strange how some people enjoy playing with other people they know, that's a weird concept. Go figure.
The bolded parts basically speak for themselves. And to think that the speaker is trusted with responsibilities regarding the smooth running of ENT...
BurritoCarcass wrote:If it's a bitch club, please go elsewhere. We don't want you here. And @fangorn, you haven't been in an EDL game, I know this because you aren't vouched. So you are completely wrong. Please come play again so I/we can shit on you, even make your own team, if you have that many friends, and I'd gladly play you. Oh god you are climbing the top 10 of ENT, would you like a medal? I'm also not sure why you care about stats so much, seriously, who cares... Not to mention 90% of the good players from ENT are on dota2 now. You are just a pubstar, you aren't prepared for a structured dota. and @iamlegion who the fuck are you? https://entgaming.net/openstats/dota/?u=iamlegion i really think you should just not talk anymore... you are just making yourself look more stupid. And honestly, fangorn, if you are so annoyed and bothered by how we handle things at ENT, please take my prior advice and take your "talents" elsewhere. Thanks.
Starts off by recommending that the user leaves. Then he makes the assumption that "[he] can shit on [fangorn]" in regards to DotA play. Next up, he talks about how Fangorn is way too stats-obsessed, and stats don't mean anything anyways. In the very next sentence, he completely brushes a user aside because his stats are stellar? Surely I'm not the only one confused by this... And to end things off, a message for every ENT user out there: If you think we're doing something wrong, fuck off. Sincerely, BurritoCarcass.
Agreements wrote:There is no constructive criticism here, it's all about harassment as far as i see.
This is one of the most reasonable things I've seen Agreements post so far...
Agreements wrote:This is getting nowhere, and since fangorn have a grudge against me, he are unwilling to see past that.
On the other hand, you are SO willing to see past any grudges you have with Fangorn in order to be totally fair and impartial with regards to his ban request.
Agreements wrote:Now the real issue here: You stated something in-game. You already know if you suspect anything you should state it in a ban request after the game, or better yet, get out of the current game, and play the next one.
Admins playing in-game should relax and play for fun. (and if playing with friends is stacking, so be it) If we were paid for this job, it would be different and you could be right about some of the things you stated.
If you wanted a mature discussion about "how to improve ENT" you should have started a post in suggestions, which is actually possible to implement. Now since all you are doing here, is complaining, i don't really see the the punchline.
Can't really argue with this at all. It's stated in a rather respectful manner. At the very least, I would recommend holding ENT staff to these standards when they are discussing matter in which their rank as a moderator/administrator holds weight.
Agreements wrote:Actually if you guys want to keep up the insults - i do suggest you find another gamehost, since ENT clearly don't tolerate that, and we never will. If you got problems and can back them up, you post a complaint. If not, you keep it for yourselves.
That makes sense, insulting shouldn't be allowed, and it's not tolerated here at ENTgaming.net...
Agreements wrote:But i guess research is not your favorite topic.
...On the other hand, thinly-veiled insults? Go ahead!
EdgeOfChaos wrote:This should probably be locked. It's just a flame war at this point and Agreements obviously acted fine here.
Sanity prevails! Kudos.
If you would like more examples, I'll be more than happy to provide them.
Re: Moderator Etiquette
I would love to see the reponse to this.
You should make a complaint against the mods in question so they will be forced to review this and review the manner in which they handle themselves and the players that get banned.
It is absolutely preposterous that you leave admins such as this after handling themselves in such a manner. When we were playing on NL, a highly elitist clan with superior games to what ENT will certainly have, admins were kicked from the staff for behaviour such as this.
If you want a boys club with 10 admins playing on the bots, keep this behaviour up, see how many will bother playing here.
You should make a complaint against the mods in question so they will be forced to review this and review the manner in which they handle themselves and the players that get banned.
It is absolutely preposterous that you leave admins such as this after handling themselves in such a manner. When we were playing on NL, a highly elitist clan with superior games to what ENT will certainly have, admins were kicked from the staff for behaviour such as this.
If you want a boys club with 10 admins playing on the bots, keep this behaviour up, see how many will bother playing here.
Re: Moderator Etiquette
IAmLegion wrote:I would love to see the reponse to this.
That would certainly be the first step towards a user-moderator dialogue, possibly with the end result of revamping ENT's current moderator system and/or removing moderators who have overstepped their bounds.
I was especially miffed at BurritoCarcass slamming Fangorn for talking about stats - ignoring the fact that he rarely, if ever, mentioned stats in the thread - and directly contradicting himself in the next sentence, by asking who the fuck you are and linking your stats page. Incidents in which calling a user's stats into question or to solve a dilemma are few and far between, doing so to slander that user's reputation is simply despicable, and doing so RIGHT AFTER shafting another user... Why is this guy still a moderator?
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