Is special treatment allowed in ENT?

[BouncingHitman]

I agree with EdgeOfChaos, it was more of a warning, like "Hey bud, watch what you are doing". I can already tell supersexyy has been improving since then, but there is no such thing as a special treatment for a mod. It would be unfair for others and it would cause a whole new situation/argument going on.

[EdgeOfChaos]

EDIT: He edited his post, making mine irrelevant.

[Drahque]

Thanks for sharing your view on this EdgeOfChaos, it helps me see it from another persons view.

I'd now understand that Supersexyy's demote can't be compared to a regular ban, before I had this understanding, I felt as if he was special treated because he were a moderator. Also I've come to the understand that he has made an appeal or excused for his behavior which I didn't know at the point I made this report. Also I didn't know if an admin abused !swap, they would only get 1 day demotion. So thanks for this understanding. (:


And thanks Dweller for sharing this very worthwhile/noticeable information:

Still I have never seen any reason given by the 2 higher moderators why Drahque should be unvouched. In fact, I have asked several times for a reason and I never got it. Karasu. said on the day before they decided to permanently unvouch Drahque that he hasn't "really found anything wrong with him", and "Not enough to take drastic action" yet the next day he is not just punished but permanently unvouched. Just this fact alone literally screams for at least a bit of explanation.

[Diablo_]

Let's face the truth guys.
80% of the LIHL players disliked Drahque('s behaviour) from day 1 on and half of these players wished to see him unvouched because he destroyed a big part of the fun in games by flaming/raging/discussing over nonsense/thinking he knows everything better etc.
HOWEVER, in my opinion he did improve his behaviour over time and I think he was an okish ally in the last weeks. Still not one of my most favorite ones, but I didn't see any reason to unvouch him anymore for his behaviour.

[dweiler]

I have limited knowledge of the situation, so I won't comment except to say that more information should have been provided in the unvouch thread. There was, however, long discussion of this in the staff section (7+ pages, three topics).

So I suggest we re-vouch Drahque until this has been done? We cannot permanently unvouch players without a reason. I want them to explain why a permanent unvouch has been the outcome as well.

Why was it not possible to do this for example: (And I suggest we replace the permanent unvouch with this suggestion if you will/can not explain why a permanent unvouch was in place)

Drahque can play, if: 1. He does not post on the LIHL-forum anymore. If anyone violated a rule someone else in the game can post or no one. 2. He does not argue with fellow players anymore. Give your opinion about a situation once, and if your ally/opponent does not agree, accept it and move on. If Drahque violates any of those two conditions he will be permanently unvouched.

How does this sound? @Drahque , @Karasu. , @Matdas , @Lihlmods

Drahque has already been unvouched for 2 weeks as well.
(Please note this is a compromise. I would let Drahque play without those 2 conditions and without the 2 week unvouch, but I am looking for a common ground.)

[aRt)Y]

MickeyTheMousie, I am not sure whether you are simply ignoring it or if you haven't yet understood the reason.

A league, especially an online gaming league, is about being able to control yourself and to be mannered, plus

The LIHL is primarily about fairness, friends and most importantly - fun.

else you could just play with some random pubs; but that's not what the 'pro' players want.

I'll sum the reason up again: He has been warned, temporarily removed and now permanently unvouched until the season is over because of multiple misbehaviors.

If he keeps doing that, obviously it will become a reason to remove him and since the league is all about fun, as mentioned above, having someone who destroys the atmosphere is simply not acceptable.

It's also not only his behavior but also his skill level which has been mentioned in the valuation of his case(s) - you might re-read what matdas and karasu brought up there.

I strongly suggest bringing up arguments which actually disprove the reason why he was removed and why he should be given a second chance before the new season starts because having a deal with a player that he shouldn't "post on the forum" & "to stop arguing" are a little ridiculous.
The discussion shouldn't be about how he has to behave because he doesn't know it himself, he might be wrong in the league.

As a moderate of the league, you should obviously be neutral but keep an eye on what the player base wants.
It's no pub league but an in-house league. If you can't behave, you are out - easy as that.

The point of the post is not to offend you but mainly to remind you not being too one sided. You might forget about the good of your players as mentioned above.

[EdgeOfChaos]

I never said you should re-vouch him, but I said you should have given him information in the unvouch thread of what he did wrong so that he can learn for next season.

[karasu.]

I will look at this when I get home in an hour. Locking this until then. Rage messages will be ignored. Sent via BlackBerry.

[Drahque]

I have found a PM from Matdas which might be useful:
[spoiler=PM from Matdas]

Both karasu. and I made the decision to have you unvouched. It took 3 hours to rummage through all the posts, replays, chat logs, and arguments on behalf of some others. I cannot name who, but they would rather you be permanently unvouched from the league.

However, Karasu. and I believe that you should not be judged based on what the other League Staff members think of you. Therefore, when you re-apply for vouch next season, Karasu and I will go over how well you changed. We will determine if your attitude is better while the other staff determine your playing skills (they will be watched by me of course).

Here is what I believe you have done wrong. You have lied in plenty of your posts about what happened. You need to stay on the truth. Do not try to twist things to make them sound in favor of you. You need to stop responding to insults on the forums. Yes, that is hard to do, but it is a must.

You were not the only one to be punished.

This was the best solution that Karasu and I could come up with.

-Matdas

[/spoiler]

As you can see the following is their reasonings to why I were permanently unvouched:

"Here is what I believe you have done wrong. You have lied in plenty of your posts about what happened. You need to stay on the truth. Do not try to twist things to make them sound in favor of you. You need to stop responding to insults on the forums. Yes, that is hard to do, but it is a must".

I have a hard time understanding why it's necessary to PERMANENTLY unvouch me for something that's happened on the forums. Also why this is the best solution at all. In my eyes there's plenty of other ways to handle this better, such as the example Dweller stated.

Also, as Matdas beautiful stated: "I believe that you should not be judged based on what the other League Staff members think of you", but somehow a Staff member affected their judging after all, this "uknown" person who wanted me gone.


So my question is, why were i not just given a warning saying as he said:
a) You need to stay on the truth.
b) Do not try to twist things to make them sound in favor of you.
c) You need to stop responding to insults on the forums.

This warning could be given to a lot of other players as well, such as when LihlDiabloDuck twists his poll in order to make in his own favor - to increase the chances of people picking the option he wishes.

[bit]

we don't hold conversations with terrorists,

there's plenty of other ways to handle this better, such as the example Dweller stated.

no.

why would we setup stupid rules just for one guy? no thanks, easier to make someone gone out of league, for the sake of the health of it.

[Drahque]

we don't hold conversations with terrorists

WTF? Since when have I been accused of being a terrorist? o.O',

Why would we setup stupid rules just for one guy? no thanks, easier to make someone gone out of league, for the sake of the health of it.

There is almost always a better solution than punishing a person permanently. And in this case, I were NOT even given a warning (in PM, on forums or in-game) that my forum activity were a problem and that I was going towards a permanent un-vouch.

The truth is, that the first time, I was even considering these things, were when the 72 hour unvouch took place. Also, AFTER I were revouched 12th august till 16th august, I didn't break any of these things nor did I break any Lihl rules. Which means, I first of all weren't given the chance to show an improvement and worse of all, I got punished for something I had already been punished for.

[Feor]

I fail to understand what is your furthermore question Drahque.

You have been given explanation why you got unvouched and how long it will last ( until end of season ). It is not permanent.

If you can not comprehend what people have told you numerous times about your overall behaviour (games/chat/forums) , that was eventually the reason that led to your ban , then I am sorry but I doubt people are here in order to give you behaviour lessons.

We are all here to have fun and play games, and you ruin that for a lot of people. You also end up giving the admins and mods a lot of unnecessary work to do with your constant reports and lies on them.

It is also pretty clear on matdas message that when you re-apply and join next season 2 unbiased admins will judge the improvement of your behaviour, and not people that might hold a grudje against you.


ps: I don't think warnings are essential before a ban. You went too far, and even though 80% of lihl players ( and some lihl mods ) told you that you should stop it, you chose to continue.

[Drahque]

Feor, I was banned 72 hours for that reason. I'd understand what I did wrong and I had no intention to make that mistake again. Once I came back 12th August, I kept it in my mind every game, but 16th I was banned again, for something I did 7th august. How is that fair when:

a) I had already been punished for it.
b) I didn't repeat my mistake in the period of 12th and 17 August.
c) I didn't break any other Lihl rules in the period of 12th and 17th August.
d) I wasn't given a chance to show my improvement.
e) After I became aware of the problem, I didn't plan to repeat it and never will.

So why do my forum activity have such a big impact, to disable me in-game?

[finduilas]

Is it me or do you really talk at cross purposes here. The thing is actually clear.

There is no legal system where you can punish twice for the same crime nor do they support retroactive punishment.

If there were no rules that connect the behaviour on the forum and to these games then it indeed is unfair to punish just like that. I don't get why some don't get his cause.

But you, topic starter, have absolutley no reason to complain about how the incident with this moderator has been handled.
It seems anything but unfair. The point is that such a behaviour is not being tolerated as you see.

And reading this topic and others it seems to me that the admins and mods are doing very well and really try to be fair and stand up for the members.

Besides, as long as they do not appear arbitrary, I don't think it fair to want a 100% identical treatment.
They sacrifice so much time and make a huge effort to make this a fun place where people don't cheat etc etc
don't you think they would rather play than watch replays and stuff like this?

[EdgeOfChaos]

It's about everything the opening post mentioned; three things.

And I don't think this is a rage topic at all.