Need an admins opinion other than Yondaime

[NoPicnic]

I was banned for item destruction/ game ruining because at 22 mins i sold my items to buy a force staff because the opposing team was fountain farming. The game ended at 26 mins. Selling my items at this period in the game had no effect on the outcome. It was already set the previous 20 mins. Yondaime will not lift my banned because he deemed by force staff "useless" for lycan, yet I was stuck at fountain. He said I should have "sat in the back of fountain"

This cannot be a legit ban. I did nothing you ruin the game. Also there is no rules against selling items to make another items. I just wanted to try to kill the opposing team who was fountain farming

Opinions?

https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=16731

[Yondaime]

You SOLD ALL of your items at 22 minutes when they did not even had 1 rax down and bought a useless forcestaff because they were not even fountain farming when you sold all your items and bought the forcestaff....

(04:20) Al.Di.Meola killed nopicnic
(04:27) skiptomyliu killed hoegarden
(04:28) Hobo.Nick killed pRof_HeinEken
(04:30 / Allied) nopicnic: lame
(04:30 / Allied) Orange: !scs
(04:30 / Allied) nopicnic: gg
(04:36 / Allied) nopicnic: !ff

You die once and then its all over you suppose, calling your teamates noobs blaming it on them, you go into the jungle refusing to help your team basically as well.

What else is there?? Lets see: (08:31 / Allied) nopicnic: ff it
(08:33 / Allied) nopicnic: losers

(10:47 / Allied) nopicnic: nah
(10:59 / Allied) nopicnic: dumb game not palying ff

(06:00 / Allied) nopicnic: votekcik me
(06:02 / Allied) nopicnic: dont want to play

Your attitude is terrible and you sir obviously do not know the points of intentional game ruining. Why the hell would you sell your basic items, such as boots, for a useless item like force staff. If you had set your ego aside perhaps you could have done better as you were playing a 5V4 game, the 5 players on your team.

Guess what, this is a legit ban, you helped ruined the game. There is rules against game ruining, which is an obvious one, you sold all of your items to make a useless one that had no initial cause to the team, a Forcestaff on lycan, you are severely dense if you think there is a loop hole in these rules.

You selling your items did have an outcome, 22 minutes sold all your items, enemy team did not have 1 RAX yet, nor did they have ANY of your tier 3 towers. So I do not see how you were "Stuck at the fountain"

[NoPicnic]

Even though I said those things. Doesn't warrant ban. I have my freedom of speech. Actions speak louder than words in DOTA.
Attitude might have not been good, but I wasn't calling teammates faggot like other teammates.
Farming is not illegal. I don't have to help my team if I don't want to.
Selling items at 22 mins had no effect on game. Notice the K/D and level of opposing team.

Also, I have yet to receive what rule I broke? No where in the PUBLIC Dota rules does it ever say - "GAME RUINING."
Even if it did. This needs to be explained. What justifies game ruining?
I guess Game Ruining is just what Admins use to ban people when they don't like what they do? I just want to follow the rules set by ENT.

[Yondaime]

Even though I said those things. Doesn't warrant ban. I have my freedom of speech. Actions speak louder than words in DOTA.
-Yeah your actions proved how much you did not care about the game nor attempted to.
.
Attitude might have not been good, but I wasn't calling teammates faggot like other teammates.
-Oh faggot is bad, but losers is perfectly fine, (08:33 / Allied) nopicnic: losers, or saying that your (06:56 / Allied) nopicnic: team sucks not bad at all either perfectly fine! (13:20 / Allied) nopicnic: u nub.
Heres my favorite though!! (13:32 / Allied) nopicnic: admin with laugh in your fae
(13:33 / Allied) nopicnic: face
(13:40 / Allied) skiptomyliu: k
(13:51 / Allied) nopicnic: cant wait to read this ban request
(14:16 / Allied) nopicnic: teal made us lose by only dying twice
(14:23 / Allied) nopicnic: aban him pls
Whos face are the admins laughing into? None, who is raging at the admins. You.

Farming is not illegal. I don't have to help my team if I don't want to.
Hmm Check those rules again please: Ruining the game: this is an obvious one... don't ruin the game on purpose (for example, by feeding or attacking teammates) Should also note, that REFUSING TO play is also a ban, so you are refusing to aid your team which is refusing to play which is ultimately intentionally ruining the game.
Selling items at 22 mins had no effect on game. Notice the K/D and level of opposing team
-However notice how you are in a 5v4 game but you are being too arrogant and butt hurt to even attempt to do any teamplaying at all, so instead you sold all your items and bought a useless forcestaff for players who were not in your base or fountain farming at that time either!!!

My notes to your argument are in red.

=======================================================================================================

Also, I have yet to receive what rule I broke? No where in the PUBLIC Dota rules does it ever say - "GAME RUINING."

Even if it did. This needs to be explained. What justifies game ruining?

I guess Game Ruining is just what Admins use to ban people when they don't like what they do? I just want to follow the rules set by ENT.

General rules
Do not leave before the game has certainly ended, especialy if no other players have left.
The use of any utility that gives you an unfair advantage over other players will result in a permanent ban.
Do not spam during games.
Do not flame. Don't rage or insult other players excessively.
Ghosting is not allowed: do not tell other players the position of units or buildings they should not be able to see.
Griefing: don't go AFK for excessive amounts of time, especially without telling other players beforehand.
Don't delay a game from starting by joining/leaving multiple times or otherwise.
Abusing votekick: using !votekick to spam or when the victim has not done anything wrong; also refusing to votekick when a player has clearly violated a rule (note: it is possible for a player to ruin the game by both being new _and_ refusing to learn; in this case votekick may be used, but it is up to the players in the game to decide)
Impersonating any Enterprise staff member.
Ruining the game:this is an obvious one... don't ruin the game on purpose

Basically what UAK is saying for the big RED RULE is use your common sense.

=======================================================================================================

I have my freedom of speech.

Obviously you actually do not when you are playing our games. Re-read the Dota rules or even general rules infact, extreme impoliteness and racism are not accepted, so do not think that way. Same goes with how you speak on these forums.

[NoPicnic]

Sigh ENT Community. These are the admins you have to deal with. Admins that cannot be objective rather subjective. Did you really compare faggot to loser?
And as you can see you are way to emotional involved for Admin.
Stating "Whos face are the admins laughing into? None, who is raging at the admins. You." "However notice how you are in a 5v4 game but you are being too arrogant and butt hurt to even attempt to do any teamplaying at all"

Lack of professionalism with Admin powers results in poorly manage forums and games.

[I3omb]

Here is your message that you sent me, and I quote
"Fountain Farming
Sent: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:25 am
by NoPicnic

So now fountain farming is subjective as well?

Note topic viewtopic.php?f=31&t=16682

Some admins ban everytime and then some ban only for 3 mins.

Wow what sorry excuse for ADMINS

What is the point of rules if not everyone follows. Another reason there are so many problems in ENT Community.

Please take away your denied and leave it for another ADMIN to ban. The one who will ban because they don't like fountain farming!

How ridiculous was that last sentence? Shows how messed up ENT Admins are and how they can't follow the rules laid out by ENT and they abuse ban privilege."

I gave you this response,
"Sent: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:32 am
by I3omb

READ THIS, it was rules that was wrote on the ban durations for dota, maybe you can learn something.
Ban time guide (DotA)
Postby EdgeOfChaos » Mon May 27, 2013 5:40 pm

In my opinion, change to this:
1. Leaving - No ban, Autoban handles this. A complete description on how autoban works.
2. Refusal to play - Length of ban: X to Y
3. Feeding/Suiciding (couriers+heroes) - Length of ban: X to Y
4. Item Destruction - Lengths of ban: X to Y
5. Maliciously using skills against your own teammates - Lengths of ban: X to Y
6. Abusing share control - Lengths of ban: X to Y
7. Giving away an allied hero position in the intent to ruin the game - Lengths of ban: X to Y
8. Fountain Farming (3+ minutes) - Lengths of ban: X to Y
9. Votekick abuse - Lengths of ban: X to Y
10. Intentionally spamming Pause/Save Game to hinder game play - Lengths of ban: X to Y
11. Maphacking - 1 year
12. Glitching - Lengths of ban: X to Y
13. Ban Dodging - Length of ban : 1 Year (There's no permaban feature)
14. Flaming - Length of ban: X to Y.
15. Setting up teams - Length of ban: X to Y
(Note: This would be if you ask a friend to get on the enemy team and feed, or if you set up two computers and feed yourself)

Combined come stuff that I think falls under the same category for neatness, and added the last one.
(Fixed a spelling error on "heroes" too)

For times, I would say (all of these for a first time offense):
1: N/A, autoban handles
2: 3-7 days
3: 7-14 days
4: 7-14 days
5: 7-14 days
6: 3-7 days
7: 7-14 days
8: 2-3 days
9: 1-2 days
10: 1-7 days (7 days only given in games like Legion, where pausing can kill the enemy king if done at the right time)
11: 1 year + stat clear
12: 14 days - 1 month
13: 1 year + stat clear
14: 1-3 days
15: 1-3 months + stat clear" I felt you needed to know the ban durations of the times and what do I get back for it, this nice response

"Re: Fountain Farming
Sent: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:38 am
by NoPicnic

Well wouldn't this be nice to know if you want to play by rules.

Admins can't have one set of rules to ban by and the PUBLIC rules are not the same?

Do you see the gap?

Completely ridiculously.

I understand and applaud you for follow 3mins plus. But not fair if other Admins don't.

Also don't you think the PUBLIC Dota rules should be updated by the rules ADMIN ban by? Only makes since. I saw about 3 there, that are not on the public rules."

You have complained to me when I denied the ban request for fountain farming, viewtopic.php?f=24&t=16746&p=78490#p78490

Defense of The Ancients Rules
Postby karasu. » Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:45 pm

The official up-to-date list of ENT DotA rules can always be found here.
• Rules apply to Enterprise-hosted DotA games only. This means that private game hosters using ENT services are exempt from these rules, but may choose to follow them if desired.
• Rules are subject to change without prior notification.

Our main goal in DotA hosting is to make the gaming experience as enjoyable as possible for everyone. The following rules determine what questionable strategies and actions are prohibited or allowed. Generally, when playing, use only strategies that were intentional by the map makers; do not exploit any aspect of the map that was not intended to be included.

The following are prohibited
• Leaving: you may not leave on a 5v5, 5v4, 4v5, or 4v4
• Plug pulling: disconnecting from the game instead of leaving, or repeatedly disconnecting and then reconnecting to activate the lag screen.
• Item destruction: destroying, hiding, or stealing team items; suiciding courier; massing cheap items; repeatedly buying and then selling items
• Map hacking and other third-party programs: see our policy on third party programs (link) that ruin the gaming experience for other players; map hacking or similar acts can lead to a permanent ban
• Exploiting glitches: any unintentional aspect in the game that can give you an unfair advantage or cause the game to crash is strictly prohibited from usage
• Deliberately helping the enemy team: giving items; intentional feeding
• AFK: excessive AFKing; moving while AFKing to prevent AFK kick
• Excessive fountain farming: fountain farming for over three minutes or so is not allowed; end the game as soon as possible, because kills do not give you an important bonus
• Extreme impoliteness: racism or excessive trash talking
• Unsharing: of a courier that has been crowed by another player (unless control was abused)

The following are fully acceptable
• Backdooring: this is a legitimate strategy
• Taking enemy team's items when dropped
• Leaving when there is less than four players on either team
• Sharing: consumable items and or regeneration items such as tps, potions, ring of health etc.
• Tossing/Forcestaff allies into enemy fountain while fountain farming

The following describes general protocols that should be used and that are acceptable
• Votekicking: You must votekick a player who has broken any of the above rules. Failure to do so may result in a temporary ban.

[Yondaime]

Lack of Common sense results in a ban, and that is what has occured.

You say I am gettign Emotionally involved when I am just clearly stating the rules but you continue to deliberately say oh they are written there, use your common sense. If I can figure them out you sure as damn well easily can as well. Also you speak of professionalism and such, well you have none the way you conduct yourself ingame and on forums.

You have no wheres to go with your argument at all and now you are just telling all of us that we do not know how to do our job at all. Well why don't you start posting ban requests regularly, behave in-game and on the forums, and post a staff application let us see you VOLUNTEER YOUR FREE TIME to manage this site and keep it the best for what the public views fit.

Any last words before I process this?

[Virulence]

The more you respond, picnic, the more everybody starts to see that this is just a rage complaint (full of hidden insults) directed at the admins that banned you.

[I3omb]

Its pretty clear he broke a rule and can't man up and accept the consequences. That is why he has been pm me saying I was wrong to ban him and this admin rejected his appeal so it too is wrong. If he is so right why doesn't do he what Yondaime says post regularly and apply for admin position. You think you can do a better job of being a good admin why don't you do it? Stop whining like a girl....

[NoPicnic]

First I am not an admin, so I am not held to high degree. I do not need to be professional. I do not have power to strip away power of users. You do, so you are held to high degree.
Again the description of game ruining is subjective. Which seems unfair. Rules should be laid out for game ruining. And most are. But not selling items to buy another item.
And how convenient that YOU would process this when I asked for opinions from others and I have only gotten 2.

Yes I am upset because I feel I was not banned fairly. But really I would like see the rules rewritten, so that I know what is a justifiable ban. Because once again game ruining can be many things. "Using common sense" can mean many things to differenct people. Hopefully a top admin will see this and some changes can be made.

[DreathKnight]

I did nothing you ruin the game. Also there is no rules against selling items to make another items.

Clearly you did ruin the game as someone posted a ban request on you.

[Medicca]

You have to be aware that we treat ban requests case by case. We do not set specific rules and ban times because there are usually a plethora of influences on ban duration.

Example:
An AFKer who says he needs to AFK for good reason for 6 minutes and has a 95%+ stay rate would receive a more lenient duration than an AFKer that afks for 3 minutes, causes raxes to be lost and has a 80% stay rate.

Since circumstances are so fluid, our staff is flexible into treating each case separately. Although this can lead to moderator-bias, we do have general guidelines (usually a range) for ban times, and even then, these are GUIDELINES, not absolute.

Any behaviour that negatively impacts a team player can be considered game ruining, i.e. it ruins the game for a teammate, especially when there is nothing an ally can do about it.

Please apply for an appeal in a couple days. You have an extremely healthy stay rate and I think you deserve a ban reduction. But please keep these rules in mind in the future! (Also note that Yondaime is a seasoned moderator )

[NutzSucksHard]

The fact is the next : If you sell-kill your item before games ending (90-95%) or like two rax down, they're about to get mega and you know they over farmed you etc... You're in poop. So the ban should stay. Also, if you go afk jungle all game and rage at your mate telling they're bad. That's not bannable, unless you never but NEVER defend or help ally. As for i.e : 40 min game total timer. You been in team for 2 min in total. This is called griefing. Also bannable. If you want to follow the rule, it is simple as that.

1. Stop rage
2. Play for fun
3. Losing is a part of a game. We can't always win. Get over it.
4. Do not sell item unless it's one that you need to get rid of.
5. Do not reveal position, afk grief, killing crow, unsharing it etc.
6. Do not kill mate unless if you're fountain farming.
7. Do not suicide/massive crow/massive branch (intentional feeding).
8. Defense of the ancient.
9. Always believe in people
10. Always believe in your skills.

Thanks. This can be closed. The ban is fairly placed unless you are telling me that your item selling was before the 90% of the game ending. Also, by selling stuff, you're not telling me that you were in a better position to defend rax right? Wich is ruining allies game in the same way. So here is a double offense. Need more? I can go review deeper if you want.

If this get closed before you can answer, wich I don't believe but who knows... If you have any concerns after the 'closing'. PM yondaime and/or red admin if need with a link to this complaint.. Tell what is wrong with the decision that as been made etc. Also, you can always appeal. Hope you'll enjoy the game next time.

Nutz-

[DAbot]

1. Respect admin/mods and other members and treat them equaly.
2. No need for rage mode.
3 . Read ent rules and policy.
4. Don't argue with admins or mods i't doesn't take any affects.

5. Enjoy your gaming on ent and be nice, and reasonable.

You are game ruining and that's why you got banned.

No complains out there.

[Yondaime]

its the fact that he refused to play, had afked, sold all his items to buy a needless one when the other team was not even at the fountain yet all his raxes were up and T3 towers were also up.